APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:05 am

VictorBorun wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:55 am
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:35 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:59 pm

The atmosphere protects us from the gamma rays. This is a secondary effect caused by the gamma rays ionizing the upper atmosphere. Totally harmless to life.
Thanks. Yet another subtle physical effect I don't really understand. <sigh>
I would not feel protected. Every heavy particle with mass like 100 MeV does get intercepted by the air but the shower of the fragments falls upon us and it's ionizing radiation.
Yes, but we're not talking heavy particles here. These are gamma rays. Photons. They don't produce showers of secondary particles.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by VictorBorun » Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:55 am

johnnydeep wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:35 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:59 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 pm So, this GRB seems to have actually generated electrical currents in the Earth's crust! I thought the atmosphere protected us from GRBs' effects down here? See https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2022/10 ... the-earth/
The atmosphere protects us from the gamma rays. This is a secondary effect caused by the gamma rays ionizing the upper atmosphere. Totally harmless to life.
Thanks. Yet another subtle physical effect I don't really understand. <sigh>
I would not feel protected. Every heavy particle with mass like 100 MeV does get intercepted by the air but the shower of the fragments falls upon us and it's ionizing radiation.
Image

How strong is the air protection?
The atmospheric pressure at sea level equals to 10 meters of water column.
It's about the layer of water they use over fuel rods for a stage storing at a nuclear power station.
Better than nothing but cosmic rays particles from a gamma burst are heavier and more penetrating.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:35 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:59 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 pm So, this GRB seems to have actually generated electrical currents in the Earth's crust! I thought the atmosphere protected us from GRBs' effects down here? See https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2022/10 ... the-earth/
The atmosphere protects us from the gamma rays. This is a secondary effect caused by the gamma rays ionizing the upper atmosphere. Totally harmless to life.
Thanks. Yet another subtle physical effect I don't really understand. <sigh>

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:59 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 pm So, this GRB seems to have actually generated electrical currents in the Earth's crust! I thought the atmosphere protected us from GRBs' effects down here? See https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2022/10 ... the-earth/
The atmosphere protects us from the gamma rays. This is a secondary effect caused by the gamma rays ionizing the upper atmosphere. Totally harmless to life.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 pm

So, this GRB seems to have actually generated electrical currents in the Earth's crust! I thought the atmosphere protected us from GRBs' effects down here? See https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2022/10 ... the-earth/

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:11 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:26 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:11 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:05 am
Intensity is just flux, yes. The energy of the photons is irrelevant. I'm not sure you could achieve a realistically high gamma ray intensity for it to be a problem. Really high energy gamma rays and cosmic rays might be 1019 eV or more. That is about the same kinetic energy as being hit by a baseball. One of those passes through you, it could do some real damage. Fortunately, such photons are very rare (which is another way of saying their intensity is very low).
So why do I see articles about the possibility of Earth life being wiped out by a nearby supernova? Would that be due to something other than very high energy photons? Or are those articles simply erroneous?
There are two issues. The first involves being hit with an intense gamma ray beam (which reaches us at the speed of light). This can (and has) alter our atmosphere, especially by reducing the protective ozone layer, which can have significant consequences on our biosystems. It isn't going to result in destroying all life on Earth. The second is the stream of charged particles that arrives more slowly. These can be much more energetic, and can descend deeper into the atmosphere. They also release showers of other potentially damaging particles and photons as they collide with gas in the atmosphere. Again, we have the real possibility of significant biological impacts. But a supernova would have to be very, very close and very specially aligned to sterilize our planet.
Thanks. So Ann was essentially correct in her reply to me above. :ssmile:

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:26 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:11 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:05 am
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:19 pm

So, is intensity just the number of photons passing through a unit area per second (perhaps also combined with the energy of the photons)? At what intensity do gamma rays become a problem for life on earth? Is 1 peta eV photon per square mm per second deadly?
Intensity is just flux, yes. The energy of the photons is irrelevant. I'm not sure you could achieve a realistically high gamma ray intensity for it to be a problem. Really high energy gamma rays and cosmic rays might be 1019 eV or more. That is about the same kinetic energy as being hit by a baseball. One of those passes through you, it could do some real damage. Fortunately, such photons are very rare (which is another way of saying their intensity is very low).
So why do I see articles about the possibility of Earth life being wiped out by a nearby supernova? Would that be due to something other than very high energy photons? Or are those articles simply erroneous?
There are two issues. The first involves being hit with an intense gamma ray beam (which reaches us at the speed of light). This can (and has) alter our atmosphere, especially by reducing the protective ozone layer, which can have significant consequences on our biosystems. It isn't going to result in destroying all life on Earth. The second is the stream of charged particles that arrives more slowly. These can be much more energetic, and can descend deeper into the atmosphere. They also release showers of other potentially damaging particles and photons as they collide with gas in the atmosphere. Again, we have the real possibility of significant biological impacts. But a supernova would have to be very, very close and very specially aligned to sterilize our planet.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:11 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:05 am
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:19 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:17 pm

This event was not particularly high energy, at only 108 eV. It had a high intensity... that is what distinguished it. Gamma rays are largely blocked by our atmosphere, and satellites are hardened against them.
So, is intensity just the number of photons passing through a unit area per second (perhaps also combined with the energy of the photons)? At what intensity do gamma rays become a problem for life on earth? Is 1 peta eV photon per square mm per second deadly?
Intensity is just flux, yes. The energy of the photons is irrelevant. I'm not sure you could achieve a realistically high gamma ray intensity for it to be a problem. Really high energy gamma rays and cosmic rays might be 1019 eV or more. That is about the same kinetic energy as being hit by a baseball. One of those passes through you, it could do some real damage. Fortunately, such photons are very rare (which is another way of saying their intensity is very low).
So why do I see articles about the possibility of Earth life being wiped out by a nearby supernova? Would that be due to something other than very high energy photons? Or are those articles simply erroneous?

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:05 am

johnnydeep wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:19 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:17 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:19 pm

So, again, why is it that these extremely high energy GRBs that we are currently detecting are not wiping out life on Earth, and apparently, not even disabling electronics in space? We, and everything on Earth, are obviously being "hit" by these super energetic photons, since I can't believe that only our detectors are getting hit! Is it simply because that even though the total energy of each photon is extremely high and therefore very dangerous, the total number of photons - the flux - is extremely low? Meaning, I guess, that we are not getting hit "directly", whatever that really means?
This event was not particularly high energy, at only 108 eV. It had a high intensity... that is what distinguished it. Gamma rays are largely blocked by our atmosphere, and satellites are hardened against them.
So, is intensity just the number of photons passing through a unit area per second (perhaps also combined with the energy of the photons)? At what intensity do gamma rays become a problem for life on earth? Is 1 peta eV photon per square mm per second deadly?
Intensity is just flux, yes. The energy of the photons is irrelevant. I'm not sure you could achieve a realistically high gamma ray intensity for it to be a problem. Really high energy gamma rays and cosmic rays might be 1019 eV or more. That is about the same kinetic energy as being hit by a baseball. One of those passes through you, it could do some real damage. Fortunately, such photons are very rare (which is another way of saying their intensity is very low).

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:19 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:17 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:19 pm
Ann wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:51 am

Worrying that we are going to be smote by a death star gamma ray burst from outer space is pointless. And unnecessary.
...

But this won't happen to us. You can rest easy.
...

Ann
So, again, why is it that these extremely high energy GRBs that we are currently detecting are not wiping out life on Earth, and apparently, not even disabling electronics in space? We, and everything on Earth, are obviously being "hit" by these super energetic photons, since I can't believe that only our detectors are getting hit! Is it simply because that even though the total energy of each photon is extremely high and therefore very dangerous, the total number of photons - the flux - is extremely low? Meaning, I guess, that we are not getting hit "directly", whatever that really means?
This event was not particularly high energy, at only 108 eV. It had a high intensity... that is what distinguished it. Gamma rays are largely blocked by our atmosphere, and satellites are hardened against them.
So, is intensity just the number of photons passing through a unit area per second (perhaps also combined with the energy of the photons)? At what intensity do gamma rays become a problem for life on earth? Is 1 peta eV photon per square mm per second deadly?

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Tingling sensation » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:44 pm

So THAT is why the dog started barking. I had checked the clock thinking it was my husband coming home early, and sure enough it was 2:10:17 pm UTC on the 9th.

"Trained to sniff out GRBs", they'd told me when I got that dog. Of course I didn't believe.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:17 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:19 pm
Ann wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:51 am
johnnydeep wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:54 pm So, these ultra high energy gamma rays passed over the Earth but were presumably blocked by the atmosphere, thereby protecting us hapless humans here on the surface. But these same rays also passed through (or impacted) satellites and the ISS and obviously also the orbiting Fermi telescope that detected tham. Is there a risk of damage to electronics or to human DNA for all the stuff in orbit? Also, how energetic would gamma rays have to be to be able to penetrate the Earth's atmosphere and reach the surface?
Worrying that we are going to be smote by a death star gamma ray burst from outer space is pointless. And unnecessary.
...

But this won't happen to us. You can rest easy.
...

Ann
So, again, why is it that these extremely high energy GRBs that we are currently detecting are not wiping out life on Earth, and apparently, not even disabling electronics in space? We, and everything on Earth, are obviously being "hit" by these super energetic photons, since I can't believe that only our detectors are getting hit! Is it simply because that even though the total energy of each photon is extremely high and therefore very dangerous, the total number of photons - the flux - is extremely low? Meaning, I guess, that we are not getting hit "directly", whatever that really means?
This event was not particularly high energy, at only 108 eV. It had a high intensity... that is what distinguished it. Gamma rays are largely blocked by our atmosphere, and satellites are hardened against them.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:19 pm

Ann wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:51 am
johnnydeep wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:54 pm So, these ultra high energy gamma rays passed over the Earth but were presumably blocked by the atmosphere, thereby protecting us hapless humans here on the surface. But these same rays also passed through (or impacted) satellites and the ISS and obviously also the orbiting Fermi telescope that detected tham. Is there a risk of damage to electronics or to human DNA for all the stuff in orbit? Also, how energetic would gamma rays have to be to be able to penetrate the Earth's atmosphere and reach the surface?
Worrying that we are going to be smote by a death star gamma ray burst from outer space is pointless. And unnecessary.
...

But this won't happen to us. You can rest easy.
...

Ann
So, again, why is it that these extremely high energy GRBs that we are currently detecting are not wiping out life on Earth, and apparently, not even disabling electronics in space? We, and everything on Earth, are obviously being "hit" by these super energetic photons, since I can't believe that only our detectors are getting hit! Is it simply because that even though the total energy of each photon is extremely high and therefore very dangerous, the total number of photons - the flux - is extremely low? Meaning, I guess, that we are not getting hit "directly", whatever that really means?

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:10 pm

Norman.B wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 7:26 pm Excuse the ignorance in this, my first post, but I was unaware there were other verified universes. I was under the impression that the universe we reside in consisted in everything. Are there for sure other verified (not just hypothetical) universes out there? And how does one verify another universe? Sorry, I know nothing about this subject. I'm just a random ecologist. Cheers.
Theories about there being "other universes" are, at this point, still just that: theories. And in theory they might even be detectable. Again, only in theory. For some lazy afternoon reading, you could do worse than to start with this Wikipedia article about "The Multiverse" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse.

But in a purely philosophical and linguistic sense, the entire set of hierarchies of universes, which merely categorizes "everything that is", could still be called The Universe. Or "The Multiverse" if you like, to distinguish it from the one and only universe that we are currently aware of.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Norman.B » Sun Oct 16, 2022 7:26 pm

Excuse the ignorance in this, my first post, but I was unaware there were other verified universes. I was under the impression that the universe we reside in consisted in everything. Are there for sure other verified (not just hypothetical) universes out there? And how does one verify another universe? Sorry, I know nothing about this subject. I'm just a random ecologist. Cheers.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by orin stepanek » Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:36 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:14 am
orin stepanek wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:38 pm LAT_221009A_burst_opt_1080.gif
Some pretty powerful energy out there! Some even went over Earth!
Are Gamma rays similar to X-rays? :?
They can be the same. Gamma rays represent the shorter wavelength end of hard x-rays, or if you prefer, hard x-rays represent the longer wavelength end of gamma rays. In other words, there is a large overlap between the two, where the terms could be used interchangeably.

Medical x-rays are outside the range of what is called gamma radiation, although gamma radiation therapy might be considered a form of x-ray therapy. Wavelengths are precise; the names we give ranges are somewhat arbitrary.
Thanks for the clarification Chris!

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Ann » Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:51 am

johnnydeep wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:54 pm So, these ultra high energy gamma rays passed over the Earth but were presumably blocked by the atmosphere, thereby protecting us hapless humans here on the surface. But these same rays also passed through (or impacted) satellites and the ISS and obviously also the orbiting Fermi telescope that detected tham. Is there a risk of damage to electronics or to human DNA for all the stuff in orbit? Also, how energetic would gamma rays have to be to be able to penetrate the Earth's atmosphere and reach the surface?
Worrying that we are going to be smote by a death star gamma ray burst from outer space is pointless. And unnecessary.

Years ago, I built an extremely simple model of the inner solar system, using little colorful cotton balls, 0.02 meters in diameter, and a round piece of cloth, 2 meters in diameter, and had people help me put them at correct distances from one another - the "Earth" was at 200 meters from the "Sun", while Mars was at 300 meters (I don't remember the distances to Mercury and Venus) - and I was actually flabbergasted at how far away these things were from one another, and how absolutely incredibly tiny the Earth was compared to all the emptiness around it.

And that was only the inner solar system. Our own cosmic back yard.

If you want to get a "feel" for how big the solar system out to Pluto is - forget the Oort Cloud!!! - then I recommend this site, A Tediously Accurate Scale Model of the Solar System. Believe me, it is tedious. The distances are so vast, so you just keep scrolling and scrolling, yet the planets are so small, that you have to scroll slowly not to miss them. Have fun scrolling!!

But here's my point. We all know that the Universe is vast, but many of us still think that death rays and explosions and other things happening "out there" will affect us. The chances of a gamma ray burst actually making a bulls-eye strike on the Earth (or the Sun) are not zilch, but they are very, very, very, very, very (repeat the word until you get tired) close to zilch.

That said, because there is such a huge number of galaxies out there, some galaxies will be unlucky:

NASA wrote:
A powerful jet from a super massive black hole is blasting a nearby galaxy, according to new findings from NASA observatories. This never-before witnessed galactic violence may have a profound effect on planets in the jet's path and trigger a burst of star formation in its destructive wake.
...
The effect of the jet on the companion galaxy is likely to be substantial, because the galaxies in 3C321 are extremely close at a distance of only about 20,000 light years apart. They lie approximately the same distance as Earth is from the center of the Milky Way galaxy.

A bright spot in the Very Large Array and MERLIN images shows where the jet has struck the side of the galaxy, dissipating some of the jet's energy. The collision disrupted and deflected the jet.

Another unique aspect of the discovery in 3C321 is how relatively short-lived this event is on a cosmic time scale. Features seen in the Very Large Array and Chandra images indicate that the jet began impacting the galaxy about one million years ago, a small fraction of the system's lifetime. This means such an alignment is quite rare in the nearby universe, making 3C321 an important opportunity to study such a phenomenon.

You can watch a video of the Death Star Galaxy here:

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

But this won't happen to us. You can rest easy.

Then again, space is an incredibly hostile environment. If we ever send people to Mars, are they going to be affected by all sorts of radiation on their long journey there? Indeed they are. Are they going to arrive on Mars spry and healthy? I very much doubt it.

Ann

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:17 am

DL MARTIN wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:54 am Thanks for the temporal context "... formed at the core of a collapsing star long ago in the distant universe" with 2 billion light years away qualifying distant as 2 billion years ago. This perspective enhances my sense of privilege in observing such astronomical marvels.
Except that is of almost no use. What we're seeing is the end stage of a short lived massive star. It would look substantially the same no matter how far away it was, other than having a lower apparent intensity.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:14 am

orin stepanek wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:38 pm LAT_221009A_burst_opt_1080.gif
Some pretty powerful energy out there! Some even went over Earth!
Are Gamma rays similar to X-rays? :?
They can be the same. Gamma rays represent the shorter wavelength end of hard x-rays, or if you prefer, hard x-rays represent the longer wavelength end of gamma rays. In other words, there is a large overlap between the two, where the terms could be used interchangeably.

Medical x-rays are outside the range of what is called gamma radiation, although gamma radiation therapy might be considered a form of x-ray therapy. Wavelengths are precise; the names we give ranges are somewhat arbitrary.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by VictorBorun » Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:13 am

Tszabeau wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:03 pm Is this just one event? It looks like two bursts to me. One from the bright central newborn object and the other from the object within the plane of the Milky Way towards the lower left of frame. Might they be related?
The ɣ burst in the center must be just one point-like event in our sky. In visible light it looked so, in a time lapse by Swift’s Ultraviolet/Optical Telescope
Image

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by bystander » Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 pm

DL MARTIN wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:28 pm So 2 billion light years away has nothing to do with time? And light from the Sun takes no time to get here!
Correct, a measure of distance has nothing to do with time.
Perhaps if we changed 2 billion light years to 612,783,092 parsecs you wouldn't be so confused.

Incorrect, it takes about 8.3 minutes for light from the Sun to reach the Earth.

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by DL MARTIN » Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:28 pm

So 2 billion light years away has nothing to do with time? And light from the Sun takes no time to get here!

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by orin stepanek » Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:01 pm

Ann wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:51 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:07 pm
Ann wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:48 pm

Nope. Gamma rays are much more powerful. They are, I guess, the most energetic electromagnetic wavelengths that we have a name for.

(As for what we should have called the wavelengths that filled the freshly newborn, just out of inflation, circa grapefruit-sized Universe that existed circa 14 billion years ago, I don't know.)

And I apologize for having fun with the lettering of your question and making it look, I guess, a bit ultraviolet.

Ann
I was referring to weather or not they work the same way as they are capable of passing through materials! Could we make machines that we could use to take pictures of interior views of objects? Why not???
Well, with the punch they pack, they must be better able than X-rays to penetrate all sorts of materials. But gamma rays are very dangerous, and almost certainly hard to produce. Let's stick with X-rays!

Ann
Who knows what future man can do with them? :mrgreen: :lol2: :shock: Don't take me too serious Ann; I have a huge imagination about the Future!

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:54 pm

So, these ultra high energy gamma rays passed over the Earth but were presumably blocked by the atmosphere, thereby protecting us hapless humans here on the surface. But these same rays also passed through (or impacted) satellites and the ISS and obviously also the orbiting Fermi telescope that detected tham. Is there a risk of damage to electronics or to human DNA for all the stuff in orbit? Also, how energetic would gamma rays have to be to be able to penetrate the Earth's atmosphere and reach the surface?

Re: APOD: GRB 221009A (2022 Oct 15)

by johnnydeep » Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:49 pm

Ann wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:48 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:38 pm LAT_221009A_burst_opt_1080.gif
Some pretty powerful energy out there! Some even went over Earth!
Are Gamma rays similar to X-rays? :?
Nope. Gamma rays are much more powerful. They are, I guess, the most energetic electromagnetic wavelengths that we have a name for.

(As for what we should have called the wavelengths that filled the freshly newborn, just out of inflation, circa grapefruit-sized Universe that existed circa 14 billion years ago, I don't know.)
...
Ann
Do you mean the light that is now the glow of the CMB? Or something more powerful that occurred before that? (Rereading your post, yes, that's what you mean!) The electromagnetic spectrum tops out at gamma rays, which are photons above a frequency 30 exahertz (124000 Ev - using the calculator at https://www.unitsconverters.com/en/Hert ... 511-3462-1). As for giving higher energy photons a name, I was going to suggest delta waves, but that seems to be taken: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_wave

"Ludicrous Rays" perhaps?

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