And the real reason for expansion is ....

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And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by The Code » Fri May 21, 2010 5:11 pm

The real reason for expansion is ....

Please take what you about to read as a form of question. I have never read this any where it comes straight from my mind.

Although, I did watch a tv program made by professor S.Hawking, which got me thinking.
His new series is on every Sunday, on discovery. His last program was on Time Machines. ''How to make a time machine''.
It was very interesting. He showed me how A Black Holes time frame, works. The bigger the mass the slower the time etc etc. And that we could use black holes, He Says:


''Imagine a spaceship orbiting the super-massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, 26,000 light years away. From Earth, it would look like the ship is making one orbit every 16 minutes, Hawking writes.

"But for the brave people on board, close to this massive object, time would be slowed down," Hawking writes. "For every 16-minute orbit, they'd only experience eight minutes of time.

If they circled for five years, local time, 10 years would have passed back on Earth.''

I myself, as well as finding this interesting, saw something else in this and in the next statement. He says:

"But there's one more possibility: traveling super fast.

"This is due to another strange fact about the universe," writes Hawking -- the cosmic speed limit: 186,000 miles per second, or the speed of light.

"Nothing can exceed that speed. It's one of the best established principles in science," writes Hawking, but "believe it or not, traveling at near the speed of light transports you to the future."

"Imagine a track that goes right around Earth, a track for a super-fast train. Onboard are passengers with a one-way ticket to the future. The train begins to accelerate, faster and faster. Soon it's circling the Earth over and over again.

"To approach the speed of light means circling the Earth seven times a second. But no matter how much power the train has, it can never quite reach the speed of light, since the laws of physics forbid it.

"Instead, let's say it gets close," writes Hawking. "Something extraordinary happens: Time starts flowing slowly on board relative to the rest of the world, just like near the black hole, only more so. Everything on the train is in slow motion."

Do you see, the same thing I saw? At the speed of light, everything on the train is in slow motion. But orbiting a super massive black hole, your 8 minutes is really 16 minutes. Your time runs faster. Does it matter, that I am made from matter just like a photon or a black hole?

Now I have heard say, Everything in the universe is a Quantum fluctuation. Matter and energy are one and the same and interchangeable. Space and time is the same thing. The difference in time, between the speed of light and a slow black hole is huge. But if everything is connected (Entangled) could this difference be causing Expansion? Does the difference in time between a black hole and the speed of a photon create more space/time? And is the reason behind the uniformity. Most photons are speeding away from a black hole. But is not that matter Entangled? It all started in the same place. But the gaps between the galaxies are getting bigger and bigger. Because the difference in time is creating more space? I hope you found this interesting.


It really was an interesting program. Its on again this Sunday, on discovery. For us in the UK.

Here's the link. Enjoy

http://news.discovery.com/space/stephen ... chine.html

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by rstevenson » Fri May 21, 2010 5:18 pm

mark swain wrote:Do you see, the same thing I saw? At the speed of light, everything on the train is in slow motion. But orbiting a super massive black hole, your 8 minutes is really 16 minutes. Your time runs faster.
I think he was saying the same thing in two different ways -- time runs "faster" on the train, or on the ship orbitting the black hole. I put faster in quotes because from the point of view of the passengers on either conveyance, time seems to be running normally, and from outside, time also seems to be running normally. But they are different frames of reference. So the passengers are taken into the future faster than we are. A 10 year trip on either vehicle will get you further than 10 years in the outside world/universe, so it will seem -- to the passengers -- that they've travelled into the future.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by The Code » Fri May 21, 2010 5:56 pm

rstevenson wrote:I think he was saying the same thing in two different ways -- time runs "faster" on the train, or on the ship orbitting the black hole.
Big black holes slow time down. if your orbiting it, your time will slow down. while the outside universe is on fast forward mode. if your traveling at the speed of light, the whole universe slows down, while your time remains the same. Yet the real time is hundreds of years per second can you see the discrepancy?
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 21, 2010 6:13 pm

mark swain wrote:Big black holes slow time down. if your orbiting it, your time will slow down. while the outside universe is on fast forward mode. if your traveling at the speed of light, the whole universe slows down, while your time remains the same. Yet the real time is hundreds of years per second can you see the discrepancy?
No. There is no such thing as "real time". Different frames of reference can have differences in the rate time flows relative to other frames of reference. That's why it's called relativity. There's nothing mysterious about this, even if it is contrary to our normal experience, and therefore non-intuitive to most people.
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 21, 2010 6:24 pm

mark swain wrote:Now I have heard say, Everything in the universe is a Quantum fluctuation. Matter and energy are one and the same and interchangeable. Space and time is the same thing. The difference in time, between the speed of light and a slow black hole is huge. But if everything is connected (Entangled) could this difference be causing Expansion?
Hawking's discussion of time is basic relativistic physics, as you would get in high school or your first year of college physics. I don't see the connection to your question about the cause of expansion.

BTW, nobody says that "Everything in the universe is a Quantum fluctuation". The suggestion has been raised that the Universe itself arose from a quantum fluctuation (pure speculation, currently untestable) or that the structure of the Universe arose from quantum fluctuations in the very early Universe (an actual, testable theory).

Also, [quantum] entanglement does not suggest that "everything is connected". It describes systems of particles that have linked quantum properties despite being spatially separated. Usually this involves pairs of particles, although larger numbers may be entangled as well. To suggest that everything in the Universe is somehow entangled goes far beyond any current theory.
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by The Code » Fri May 21, 2010 6:32 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
mark swain wrote:Big black holes slow time down. if your orbiting it, your time will slow down. while the outside universe is on fast forward mode. if your traveling at the speed of light, the whole universe slows down, while your time remains the same. Yet the real time is hundreds of years per second can you see the discrepancy?
No. There is no such thing as "real time". Different frames of reference can have differences in the rate time flows relative to other frames of reference. That's why it's called relativity. There's nothing mysterious about this, even if it is contrary to our normal experience, and therefore non-intuitive to most people.
The differences you talk about, is the stretchy space time. Time that changes due to mass? What time is it on the little planet speedy photon? ----------------------Time Expansion Discrepancy-----------------------What time is it, on a super massive black hole ?

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 21, 2010 7:19 pm

mark swain wrote:The differences you talk about, is the stretchy space time. Time that changes due to mass? What time is it on the little planet speedy photon? ----------------------Time Expansion Discrepancy-----------------------What time is it, on a super massive black hole ?
I don't know what "stretchy space time" is, but I don't think it has anything to do with what I'm talking about. Asking "what time is it" anyplace is generally a meaningless question. All you can say is that time flows differently between different reference frames. There is no absolute value you can place on a specific time except within a single frame of reference.
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by The Code » Sat May 22, 2010 4:06 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:I don't know what "stretchy space time" is, but I don't think it has anything to do with what I'm talking about. Asking "what time is it" anyplace is generally a meaningless question. All you can say is that time flows differently between different reference frames. There is no absolute value you can place on a specific time except within a single frame of reference.
If i am speeding at light speed, my time stays the same. yet out side my space craft, generations of my family are living there lives and dieing, in the minutes i am experiencing. if My space craft is orbiting a super massive black hole, my 5 years of time becomes ten years on earth. But nobody really understands time, how it works. How time flows from 1 second to another. It must be a form of energy created by the big bang? or is time itself separated from all this by some other means? Is the 186,000 miles per second down to distance or time? why can not light flow out of a black hole? Is it time? If time does not run in a normal way, does this stop a photon in its tracks? Any way bye the bye, we all know that a black holes frame of time is different to a photons frame of time. Yet the whole universe is connected in a form of space time grid. We have all seen how the earth bends space time. We all know that space time is a physical reality and the Me/photon at light speed changes the outside universe to the future. that part is true, and also in the influence of a big object time is also influenced. No matter how you look at it, the space time grid, which is all connected is either stretching, or more space is being created. New space can appear due to some quantum effects? That we do not understand. Where did a 2 billion light year void come from? (One of many) Was it stretched or was it created?

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat May 22, 2010 4:49 pm

mark swain wrote:If i am speeding at light speed, my time stays the same. yet out side my space craft, generations of my family are living there lives and dieing, in the minutes i am experiencing. if My space craft is orbiting a super massive black hole, my 5 years of time becomes ten years on earth.
Yes. That's as normal and well understood a natural phenomenon as an apple falling from a tree.
But nobody really understands time, how it works.
If you mean at some philosophical level, perhaps. But from a scientific standpoint, "how it works" is very well described.
It must be a form of energy created by the big bang?
Time is not energy. It is simply one of the Universe's four dimensions. Time is no more energy than spatial direction is energy.
why can not light flow out of a black hole? Is it time?
What does that even mean? Light is energy. It is a thing, carried by particles with effective mass. A black hole is simply an object with an escape velocity greater than c, so it is hardly surprising that light can't come out of a black hole. Time doesn't flow, time isn't a thing. Time is affected by the distortion of spacetime around a black hole in the same way that space if affected. Neither move in or out of the black hole.
If time does not run in a normal way, does this stop a photon in its tracks?
Time always "runs" in a normal way.
Any way bye the bye, we all know that a black holes frame of time is different to a photons frame of time.
To the extent that you can define a frame of reference for a photon, time runs differently for it than for everything outside its frame. You, me, or a black hole, there's no difference.
Yet the whole universe is connected in a form of space time grid.
What does that mean? Most of the Universe is not connected to the rest.
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by The Code » Mon May 24, 2010 5:51 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
mark swain wrote:If i am speeding at light speed, my time stays the same. yet out side my space craft, generations of my family are living there lives and dieing, in the minutes i am experiencing. if My space craft is orbiting a super massive black hole, my 5 years of time becomes ten years on earth.
Yes. That's as normal and well understood a natural phenomenon as an apple falling from a tree.
But nobody really understands time, how it works.
If you mean at some philosophical level, perhaps. But from a scientific standpoint, "how it works" is very well described.
It must be a form of energy created by the big bang?
Time is not energy. It is simply one of the Universe's four dimensions. Time is no more energy than spatial direction is energy.
why can not light flow out of a black hole? Is it time?
What does that even mean? Light is energy. It is a thing, carried by particles with effective mass. A black hole is simply an object with an escape velocity greater than c, so it is hardly surprising that light can't come out of a black hole. Time doesn't flow, time isn't a thing. Time is affected by the distortion of spacetime around a black hole in the same way that space if affected. Neither move in or out of the black hole.
If time does not run in a normal way, does this stop a photon in its tracks?
Time always "runs" in a normal way.
Any way bye the bye, we all know that a black holes frame of time is different to a photons frame of time.
To the extent that you can define a frame of reference for a photon, time runs differently for it than for everything outside its frame. You, me, or a black hole, there's no difference.
Yet the whole universe is connected in a form of space time grid.
What does that mean? Most of the Universe is not connected to the rest.

Hey Chris, Check this out !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km89X8zoJH0

I like the bit where he says, : What time is it? Let me point out, Hes asking because he has not got a clue :lol:

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by bystander » Mon May 24, 2010 9:14 pm

Is Time an Illusion? ( Preview )
Scientific American (June 2010)
The concepts of time and change may emerge from a universe that, at root, is utterly static

As you read this sentence, you probably think that this moment—right now—is what is happening. The present moment feels special. It is real. However much you may remember the past or anticipate the future, you live in the present. Of course, the moment during which you read that sentence is no longer happening. This one is. In other words, it feels as though time flows, in the sense that the present is constantly updating itself. We have a deep intuition that the future is open until it becomes present and that the past is fixed. As time flows, this structure of fixed past, immediate present and open future gets carried forward in time. This structure is built into our language, thought and behavior. How we live our lives hangs on it.

Yet as natural as this way of thinking is, you will not find it reflected in science. The equations of physics do not tell us which events are occurring right now—they are like a map without the “you are here” symbol. The present moment does not exist in them, and therefore neither does the flow of time. Additionally, Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity suggest not only that there is no single special present but also that all moments are equally real [see “That Mysterious Flow” by Paul Davies; Scientific American, September 2002]. Fundamentally, the future is no more open than the past.
  • Key Concepts
  • Time is an especially hot topic right now in physics. The search for a unified theory is forcing physicists to reexamine very basic assumptions, and few things are more basic than time.
  • Some physicists argue that there is no such thing as time. Others think time ought to be promoted rather than demoted. In between these two positions is the fascinating idea that time exists but is not fundamental. A static world somehow gives rise to the time we perceive.
  • Philosophers have debated such ideas since before the time of Socrates, but physicists are now making them concrete. According to one, time may arise from the way that the universe is partitioned; what we perceive as time reflects the relations among its pieces.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by makc » Tue May 25, 2010 10:41 am

Chris Peterson wrote:There is no such thing as "real time".
There is "proper time". It is good candidate for "real time", because it equals interval (or maybe i*interval) which is the same for everybody.

In the example of black hole orbiter above, ignoring to/from parts of the trip, we can load it with food for 8 months, watch it orbiting black hole for 16 months, and then recover the crew all alive and well. So, while 16 months is physically valid measurement from our p.o.v., it obviously makes no sense in food supply calculations; on the other hand, "proper" time yields "proper" results.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by dougettinger » Wed May 26, 2010 2:34 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Time is not energy. It is simply one of the Universe's four dimensions. Time is no more energy than spatial direction is energy.
Time is not even a dimension. Time is a convention to connect two or more pieces of the universe. My age is based on how many orbits the Earth made after I was born. If I was born and lived on Titan, what would be my age ? I can think of several conventions including the number of orbits that Earth made. How old is the universe if there are many more than just one Big Bang ? How would we then use isotopes to measure the age of the solar system ?

The big puzzle for me is that our time honoured motion equations are thrown out the window because of the speed of light which is or is not based on time.
How does anything start at given velocity like a photon leaving a turned on flashlight without accelerating from zero veloctiy to attain the velocity of light ?
Something is very, very fishy. I sense that perhaps everything including our planet, our bodies (not only galaxies) is expanding at the rate of the speed of light in this corner of the universe. How else can a photon leave a surface already at 186,000 miles per second ?


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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by makc » Wed May 26, 2010 10:30 am

dougettinger wrote:I sense that perhaps everything including our planet, our bodies (not only galaxies) is expanding at the rate of the speed of light in this corner of the universe. How else can a photon leave a surface already at 186,000 miles per second ?
Oh yeah, now when you said that, it all makes so much more sense, doesn't it.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by 60moo » Wed May 26, 2010 3:56 pm

dougettinger wrote: How else can a photon leave a surface already at 186,000 miles per second?
It's been 30 years since I studied physics at uni, but I always thought that a photon is never at rest, and that once it comes into existence, the acceleration from an outside observer's reference frame is infinite - or maybe there's some quantum effect/Heisenberg/de Broglie thingamajig happening at the start :roll: ?? And, because it travels at the speed of light, is it true that time, as perceived by the photon, stands still?

Also, something relevant to this topic that has always eluded me: When an object is accelerated towards the speed of light, how much of the applied energy goes into the increase in velocity of that object, and how much goes into increasing the object's mass? Furthermore, with increasing mass, what is actually going on at the subatomic level - do new particles form, do the protons and neutrons gain mass, or does nothing really happen other than, for example, if you performed a bubble-chamber experiment, those pretty trails left behind just happen to be observed to have smaller radii?

Thanks guys,
Moo.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by The Code » Wed May 26, 2010 6:11 pm

For those of you, who want to read up. And try to understand this thread.

http://www.costellospaceart.com/html/ti ... light.html

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed May 26, 2010 7:32 pm

dougettinger wrote:Time is not even a dimension. Time is a convention to connect two or more pieces of the universe.
I disagree completely. Time is a dimension every bit as much as the three orthogonal directions of space are dimensions. Time is not a convention. A difference in time connects two pieces of the Universe, in the same way that a difference in position does. Time is a true dimension, which is orthogonal to the three spatial dimensions.
My age is based on how many orbits the Earth made after I was born. If I was born and lived on Titan, what would be my age ?
The question is essentially meaningless. All you can really talk about is the comparison between two clocks in the same reference frame. So you might synchronize a pair of clocks in a given reference frame, separate them and allow them to be in different frames, and then bring them together again. At that point, you can compare them and the idea of "age" makes sense. You can calculate that kind of age if you know how separate reference frames are related, of course.
The big puzzle for me is that our time honoured motion equations are thrown out the window because of the speed of light which is or is not based on time.
What time honored equations? Newtonian motion still works, unless the velocities are very high, in which case we have the (now quite old and time honored) equations of relativity that can be used to describe motion.
How does anything start at given velocity like a photon leaving a turned on flashlight without accelerating from zero veloctiy to attain the velocity of light ?
You are making the standard mistake of trying to bend the behavior of the Universe into some sort of model that fits in with your experience of the world around you. That doesn't work; we live in a narrow regime, and expecting the very small, very big, or very fast to follow the same rules is wrong. Our theory tells us how such regimes operate, and our experiments and observations support that theory. The answers to "how" are found in the equations themselves; no other answer makes sense (especially not some analogy to how we perceive things to be).
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by dougettinger » Thu May 27, 2010 8:02 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: What time honored equations? Newtonian motion still works, unless the velocities are very high, in which case we have the (now quite old and time honored) equations of relativity that can be used to describe motion.
How does anything start at given velocity like a photon leaving a turned on flashlight without accelerating from zero veloctiy to attain the velocity of light ?
So what is the reason that light or a photon created at a surface moves away from that surface without accelerating? The photon is instantaneously moving at 186,000 miles per hour. Is the relativity answer for this phenomenom that a photon is almost massless ? But don't electrons that have some mass and travel at the same speed through conductors?

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu May 27, 2010 11:55 pm

dougettinger wrote:So what is the reason that light or a photon created at a surface moves away from that surface without accelerating? The photon is instantaneously moving at 186,000 miles per hour.
It is a meaningless question. You are imagining this photon as if it were a billiard ball. It isn't. A photon isn't described by the same mechanics as a billiard ball. It doesn't experience acceleration. It never exists at any velocity other than c.

If you try to bend this concept into the framework of common experience, you'll never get any farther in understanding the quantum world.
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Beta » Fri May 28, 2010 12:33 am

60moo wrote: Ssomething relevant to this topic that has always eluded me: When an object is accelerated towards the speed of light, how much of the applied energy goes into the increase in velocity of that object, and how much goes into increasing the object's mass?
All of it, and all of it. They're not competing. You will get an increase of mass according to KE = (m-m0)c^2. You will also get an increase in velocity according to KE = m0c^2 (c/sqrt(c^2-v^2) -1)
60moo wrote: Furthermore, with increasing mass, what is actually going on at the subatomic level - do new particles form, do the protons and neutrons gain mass, or does nothing really happen other than, for example, if you performed a bubble-chamber experiment, those pretty trails left behind just happen to be observed to have smaller radii?
Every particle gains mass, there is no transmutation, no ferment of new particles-- an observer inside the box can't detect the box's speed. (I'm not sure what you mean about the bubble chamber.)

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by 60moo » Sat May 29, 2010 4:58 pm

Thank you Beta - now I'm on track! :D Your answer has changed my ideas about "mass" from the concept of a quantity in the way that increasing the mass of a half cup of sugar can be achieved by adding more sugar, to one of mass simply being the potential of a body to be affected by an energy field.

[The bubble-chamber reference was about being able to measure changes in mass through inference only, rather than by direct observation of any change to the dimensions or appearance of that particle].

Regards,
Moo.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by astrolabe » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:38 am

Hello All,

An object in motion approaching a Black Hole event horizon...mass increases, time slows.
An object in motion approaching the Speed of Light............mass increases, time slows.

From the frame of an outside observer.

Other than each object accelerating or just being in motion, have I missed something?
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Beta » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:16 am

astrolabe wrote: An object in motion approaching a Black Hole event horizon...mass increases, time slows.
An object in motion approaching the Speed of Light............mass increases, time slows.

From the frame of an outside observer.

Other than each object accelerating or just being in motion, have I missed something?
Nope, you're correct. There's more to it, but so far you're correct.

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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by astrolabe » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:20 am

Hello Beta,

Oh yes, I'm sure there is and thank you for replying.
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Re: And the real reason for expansion is ....

Post by Ann » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:32 am

Yet the whole universe is connected in a form of space time grid.

What does that mean? Most of the Universe is not connected to the rest.
Ah, Chris. The danger of illustrations.

I've just tried to convince you that the Sun ins't yellow. Stubbornly, you have refused to acknowledge that I'm right.

Yet the most important reason why people think that the Sun is yellow is that we keep saying that it is yellow, and that we keep "painting" it yellow in our illustrations and photographs.

Image

A space shuttle is seen transiting the Sun. What color is the Sun? It's yellow. Not because it is yellow, but because it was made to look yellow. In this image, too.

Why would people believe that there is a huge space grid connecting everything in space with everything else? Because our illustrations make it look as if there was such a grid.

Image

That's why illustrations are so dangerous! Because we don't know what we see, we see what we think we know. Our thought processes and ideas are shaped by the illustrations we have seen. Hence the supposed yellow color of the Sun and the supposed all-encompassing space grid that keeps everything in the universe cosily connected. Well, it would make the universe a great place to make cell phone calls - you'd never be in a place where you wouldn't be able to call anyone else anywhere in the universe, would you?

Ann
Color Commentator