Is dark matter really necessary?

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observer
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Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:21 am

Is it possible that the space that contains spiral galaxies is actually rotating as a unit, generating its own gravity, which then holds everything in place like debris caught in a whirlpool? That might explain why the stars appear to be moving faster than they should be.

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Chris Peterson
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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:47 am

observer wrote:Is it possible that the space that contains spiral galaxies is actually rotating as a unit, generating its own gravity, which then holds everything in place like debris caught in a whirlpool? That might explain why the stars appear to be moving faster than they should be.
That suggestion is not compatible with any physical theory, and is incompatible with a great deal of well supported theory.
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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:22 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
observer wrote:Is it possible that the space that contains spiral galaxies is actually rotating as a unit, generating its own gravity, which then holds everything in place like debris caught in a whirlpool? That might explain why the stars appear to be moving faster than they should be.
That suggestion is not compatible with any physical theory, and is incompatible with a great deal of well supported theory.
I was thinking of something along the lines of a vortex of collapsed space left behind after a large burst of energy. What's the main deal breaker?

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:00 pm

observer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
observer wrote:Is it possible that the space that contains spiral galaxies is actually rotating as a unit, generating its own gravity, which then holds everything in place like debris caught in a whirlpool? That might explain why the stars appear to be moving faster than they should be.
That suggestion is not compatible with any physical theory, and is incompatible with a great deal of well supported theory.
I was thinking of something along the lines of a vortex of collapsed space left behind after a large burst of energy. What's the main deal breaker?
The main deal breaker? This part: "something along the lines of a vortex of collapsed space left behind after a large burst of energy". Just because you can put those words together in English, that doesn't mean they have any physical meaning. What is a "vortex of collapsed space"? For that matter, what is "collapsed space"? That concept doesn't exist within any physics I'm aware of. How would energy (what kind of energy?) collapse this space?

I fail to see the point of taking a simple explanation that is consistent with both theory and multiple lines of observational evidence (dark matter) and trying to replace it with something that is poorly defined and lacks physical support.
Chris

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by neufer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:06 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
observer wrote:
I was thinking of something along the lines of a vortex of collapsed space left behind after a large burst of energy. What's the main deal breaker?
The main deal breaker? This part: "something along the lines of a vortex of collapsed space left behind after a large burst of energy". Just because you can put those words together in English, that doesn't mean they have any physical meaning.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-true-meaning-of-bs/ wrote:
<<In a 2010 debate we had at the California Institute of Technology that was televised on ABC's Nightline, in the audience Q&A (http://bit.ly/1PQqk6s), Chopra defines consciousness as “a superposition of possibilities,” to which physicist Leonard Mlodinow replies: “I know what each of those words mean. I still don't think I know….”>>
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:13 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:What is a "vortex of collapsed space"?
A 'rapidly' increasing gravitational field that pulls surrounding material in and gets it spinning in uniform motion.
Chris Peterson wrote:I fail to see the point of taking a simple explanation that is consistent with both theory and multiple lines of observational evidence (dark matter) and trying to replace it with something that is poorly defined and lacks physical support.
I'm not trying to replace anything. In fact it's possible that we're describing the same thing, just seen from a different perspective. From my own vantage point, fields of energy in uniform motion (even lumpy ones such as galaxies) tend to create secondary fields that oppose any changes to that motion.

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:22 pm

observer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:What is a "vortex of collapsed space"?
A 'rapidly' increasing gravitational field that pulls surrounding material in and gets it spinning in uniform motion.
What is an "increasing gravitational field"? That would require an increasing mass somewhere, or a change in mass density.
observer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:I fail to see the point of taking a simple explanation that is consistent with both theory and multiple lines of observational evidence (dark matter) and trying to replace it with something that is poorly defined and lacks physical support.
I'm not trying to replace anything. In fact it's possible that we're describing the same thing, just seen from a different perspective. From my own vantage point, fields of energy in uniform motion (even lumpy ones such as galaxies) tend to create secondary fields that oppose any changes to that motion.
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:36 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
observer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:What is a "vortex of collapsed space"?
A 'rapidly' increasing gravitational field that pulls surrounding material in and gets it spinning in uniform motion.
What is an "increasing gravitational field"? That would require an increasing mass somewhere, or a change in mass density.
Yes.
Chris Peterson wrote:
observer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:I fail to see the point of taking a simple explanation that is consistent with both theory and multiple lines of observational evidence (dark matter) and trying to replace it with something that is poorly defined and lacks physical support.
I'm not trying to replace anything. In fact it's possible that we're describing the same thing, just seen from a different perspective. From my own vantage point, fields of energy in uniform motion (even lumpy ones such as galaxies) tend to create secondary fields that oppose any changes to that motion.
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
If you extrapolate the laws of electronics to three dimensions you end up with something that resembles a combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory all rolled into one. It's the only method I've seen that explains the mechanism behind gravity to my satisfaction. I'm in the process of exploring that concept, which involves getting someone with expertise in those areas to punch holes in it. That's where you come in. =)

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by geckzilla » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:27 pm

First, I'm moving this out of the Library and into the Cafe. Second, you need to try to punch holes in a supported theory before constructing your own. Short of that, punch your own holes in your own theory. Yes, it is too much to ask professionals to come look at your theory. They get requests like this rather frequently and could literally spend a lifetime explaining why they're wrong and essentially accomplish nothing.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:01 am

observer wrote:If you extrapolate the laws of electronics to three dimensions you end up with something that resembles a combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory all rolled into one.
As an expert in electronics as well as someone well trained in relativity and quantum mechanics, and with as reasonable an understanding of string theory as a non-specialist can have, I'd have to firmly disagree with that assessment.
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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:44 am

geckzilla wrote:... you need to try to punch holes in a supported theory before constructing your own.
That assertion assumes that there's only one correct way of explaining things. I'm not questioning the validity of any other theory. (Apologies for the title.) I'm just offering a view from a different 'frame of reference'. It offers some intriguing insights that clear a few things up (for me anyway), so I thought I would share it with you. This seems like a logical place to do that.

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:55 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
observer wrote:If you extrapolate the laws of electronics to three dimensions you end up with something that resembles a combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory all rolled into one.
As an expert in electronics as well as someone well trained in relativity and quantum mechanics, and with as reasonable an understanding of string theory as a non-specialist can have, I'd have to firmly disagree with that assessment.
That was an extremely generalized assessment. A more detailed description would be that matter and space (respectively) exhibit properties strikingly similar to inductance and capacitance, only in (three) dimensions. It is therefore logical to postulate that there might be some other similarities as well.

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Nitpicker » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:58 am

All correct ways of explaining things rely on evidence and theory to some extent. And if one way also forms a consensus within the scientific community, then it is embraced as mainstream science, which is what is discussed here on The Starship. Without consensus, thar be pseudoscience.

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:20 am

Nitpicker wrote:All correct ways of explaining things rely on evidence and theory to some extent. And if one way also forms a consensus within the scientific community, then it is embraced as mainstream science, which is what is discussed here on The Starship. Without consensus, thar be pseudoscience.
Agreed. Also, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. :D

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:27 am

observer wrote:That was an extremely generalized assessment. A more detailed description would be that matter and space (respectively) exhibit properties strikingly similar to inductance and capacitance, only in (three) dimensions.
Well... no, they don't.
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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by Nitpicker » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:28 am

observer wrote:Agreed. Also, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. :D
For such a long journey, it makes sense to hitch a ride:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_ ... _of_giants

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:16 am

I fully appreciate the inertia. I don't have a reputation to protect so I can throw my nutty ideas out there for you all to ponder. I'll leave you with this one for now: If the universe is made of dissipating energy, and the BB was just a drop to a lower quantum level of stability, then each successive step would have its own generation of particles.

Have a great week, everyone! :D

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by rstevenson » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:32 pm

observer wrote:I fully appreciate the inertia. I don't have a reputation to protect so I can throw my nutty ideas out there for you all to ponder. ...
It's always possible to toss out interesting sounding ideas in words. But if the idea remains only in the realm of words, it is nothing more than philosophy. In order to have your ideas taken seriously -- around here or in any other science based forum -- you'll need to express the ideas in equations, and put some values into those equations, and crank the wheels a few times to squeeze some more values out the other end of the equations. (It's damn hard work, by the way.) Until then, you're blowing smoke.

For example, you said
observer wrote:If you extrapolate the laws of electronics to three dimensions you end up with something that resembles a combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory all rolled into one.
Okay, on which equations did you base that statement? Which "laws of electronics" are you referring to? How are they extrapolated (in mathematical terms) to three dimensions? How are you putting together your "combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory"? (LOTS of people would be interested in that!) And finally, how are you comparing the 3D electronic extrapolation to the latter combo?

When you've answered all those questions, very specifically and in as much detail as you can, submit the result to a peer-reviewed journal. If you pull it off, you won't have to tell us about it. It'll be big news, believe me.

Rob

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by observer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:54 am

rstevenson wrote:
observer wrote:I fully appreciate the inertia. I don't have a reputation to protect so I can throw my nutty ideas out there for you all to ponder. ...
It's always possible to toss out interesting sounding ideas in words. But if the idea remains only in the realm of words, it is nothing more than philosophy. In order to have your ideas taken seriously -- around here or in any other science based forum -- you'll need to express the ideas in equations, and put some values into those equations, and crank the wheels a few times to squeeze some more values out the other end of the equations. (It's damn hard work, by the way.) Until then, you're blowing smoke.

For example, you said
observer wrote:If you extrapolate the laws of electronics to three dimensions you end up with something that resembles a combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory all rolled into one.
Okay, on which equations did you base that statement? Which "laws of electronics" are you referring to? How are they extrapolated (in mathematical terms) to three dimensions? How are you putting together your "combination of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory"? (LOTS of people would be interested in that!) And finally, how are you comparing the 3D electronic extrapolation to the latter combo?

When you've answered all those questions, very specifically and in as much detail as you can, submit the result to a peer-reviewed journal. If you pull it off, you won't have to tell us about it. It'll be big news, believe me.

Rob
We're talking about a 3 dimensional ac 'field current' circuit where LC resonant systems are free to float around inside each other and match their impedance with gravity. :shock: I'm afraid I just don't have the math skills to pull that off. I was hoping someone here might be interested in giving it a shot. The best I can manage is a picture. =)

Image

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Re: Is dark matter really necessary?

Post by geckzilla » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:19 am

Author admits a deficiency in math skills. Discussion ends.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.