Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

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Ann
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Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by Ann » Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am

Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Ladies and gentlemen, let me present the evidence:


Dark matter is at left, the cosmic dust particle is at right.

Notice any similarities? All right, one is a little grainier and knottier than the other. So...?

Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?

Ann
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by Fred the Cat » Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:28 pm

Ann wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am
Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Ladies and gentlemen, let me present the evidence:


Dark matter is at left, the cosmic dust particle is at right.

Notice any similarities? All right, one is a little grainier and knottier than the other. So...?

Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?

Ann
It is an interesting concept that has been compared very similarly to what you suggest. :idea:

The idea seems to be central in the quest to describe the universe in simple terms. One person seems to be heading in the multiverse direction but I wonder about support for his ideas. Some may think them imaginary in nature. :wink:
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Ann
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by Ann » Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:31 pm

Fred the Cat wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:28 pm

It is an interesting concept that has been compared very similarly to what you suggest. :idea:
On both the largest and smallest cosmic scales, the Universe is not fractal-like at all, and that only the intermediate scales have any chance at exhibiting fractal-like behavior.
Wow.

I used to be terrified that we were heading for a Big Crunch, so once (when I was young) I asked an astronomer how we would first start noticing what was going on in case the Universe was grinding to a halt, only to start contracting. He couldn't answer. But many years later, I remember finding the answer: We would first notice it at intermediate distances.

There is something about this intermediate stuff.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by neufer » Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Ann wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am

Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox wrote:
<<The coastline paradox is the counterintuitive observation that the coastline of a landmass does not have a well-defined length. This results from the fractal curve-like properties of coastlines, i.e., the fact that a coastline typically has a fractal dimension (which in fact makes the notion of length inapplicable). The first recorded observation of this phenomenon was by Lewis Fry Richardson and it was expanded upon by Benoit Mandelbrot.
Unlike topological dimensions, the fractal index can take non-integer values, indicating that a set fills its space qualitatively and quantitatively differently from how an ordinary geometrical set does. For instance, a curve with a fractal dimension very near to 1, say 1.1, behaves quite like an ordinary line, but a curve with fractal dimension 1.9 winds convolutedly through space very nearly like a surface. Similarly, a surface with fractal dimension of 2.1 fills space very much like an ordinary surface, but one with a fractal dimension of 2.9 folds and flows to fill space rather nearly like a volume.>>
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Ann
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by Ann » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:48 am

neufer wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:41 pm
Ann wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am

Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox wrote:
<<The coastline paradox is the counterintuitive observation that the coastline of a landmass does not have a well-defined length. This results from the fractal curve-like properties of coastlines, i.e., the fact that a coastline typically has a fractal dimension (which in fact makes the notion of length inapplicable). The first recorded observation of this phenomenon was by Lewis Fry Richardson and it was expanded upon by Benoit Mandelbrot.
Unlike topological dimensions, the fractal index can take non-integer values, indicating that a set fills its space qualitatively and quantitatively differently from how an ordinary geometrical set does. For instance, a curve with a fractal dimension very near to 1, say 1.1, behaves quite like an ordinary line, but a curve with fractal dimension 1.9 winds convolutedly through space very nearly like a surface. Similarly, a surface with fractal dimension of 2.1 fills space very much like an ordinary surface, but one with a fractal dimension of 2.9 folds and flows to fill space rather nearly like a volume.>>

What is Swedish food vlogger Mauri doing posing as redhead cartoon character in Art's post?

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neufer
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by neufer » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:37 pm

Ann wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:48 am

What is Swedish food vlogger Mauri doing posing as redhead cartoon character in Art's post?

Ann
. . . . . . Hamlet : Act I, scene III
.
LORD POLONIUS: Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
  • But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
    For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
    And they in Sweden of the best rank and station
    Are of a most select and generous chef in that.
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by rstevenson » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 pm

Ann wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am
Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Ladies and gentlemen, let me present the evidence:


Dark matter is at left, the cosmic dust particle is at right.

Notice any similarities? All right, one is a little grainier and knottier than the other. So...?

Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?

Ann
Coincidental appearance is rarely a good starting point for an hypothesis. The very definition of normal matter includes all visible matter. Dust, being very visible in reflected and refracted radiation, is already accounted for as normal matter. No fair counting it again as dark matter. ;-)

Rob

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Ann
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by Ann » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:41 pm

rstevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 pm
Ann wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am
Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Ladies and gentlemen, let me present the evidence:


Dark matter is at left, the cosmic dust particle is at right.

Notice any similarities? All right, one is a little grainier and knottier than the other. So...?

Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?

Ann
Coincidental appearance is rarely a good starting point for an hypothesis. The very definition of normal matter includes all visible matter. Dust, being very visible in reflected and refracted radiation, is already accounted for as normal matter. No fair counting it again as dark matter. ;-)

Rob
Rob, you are right of course (about dust being ordinary baryonic matter), but I wasn't suggesting that dark matter is baryonic matter (or vice versa). I asked if dark matter might be the cousin of baryonic matter.

That's not the same thing, at least not to me!

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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by rstevenson » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:20 pm

Ann wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:41 pm
rstevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 pm
Ann wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am
Yes, is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed and just a bit smoothed? Ladies and gentlemen, let me present the evidence:

Can't the relationship between dark matter and cosmic dust be (a bit) like a Mandelbrot fractal set where everything repeats at smaller and smaller (or larger and larger) scales?

Ann
Coincidental appearance is rarely a good starting point for an hypothesis. The very definition of normal matter includes all visible matter. Dust, being very visible in reflected and refracted radiation, is already accounted for as normal matter. No fair counting it again as dark matter. ;-)

Rob
Rob, you are right of course (about dust being ordinary baryonic matter), but I wasn't suggesting that dark matter is baryonic matter (or vice versa). I asked if dark matter might be the cousin of baryonic matter.

That's not the same thing, at least not to me!

Ann
Wellllll, okay. But my cousins are all the same species as I am (most of them, anyway) so maybe not the best choice of word.

So you were just using the shape of the dust particles as a metaphor, to introduce the possibility of the fractal nature of dark matter?

Rob

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Ann
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Re: Is dark matter the cousin of cosmic dust twice removed???

Post by Ann » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:56 pm

rstevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:20 pm
Ann wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:41 pm
rstevenson wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 pm


Coincidental appearance is rarely a good starting point for an hypothesis. The very definition of normal matter includes all visible matter. Dust, being very visible in reflected and refracted radiation, is already accounted for as normal matter. No fair counting it again as dark matter. ;-)

Rob
Rob, you are right of course (about dust being ordinary baryonic matter), but I wasn't suggesting that dark matter is baryonic matter (or vice versa). I asked if dark matter might be the cousin of baryonic matter.

That's not the same thing, at least not to me!

Ann
Wellllll, okay. But my cousins are all the same species as I am (most of them, anyway) so maybe not the best choice of word.

So you were just using the shape of the dust particles as a metaphor, to introduce the possibility of the fractal nature of dark matter?

Rob
You've got it. :wink: When I saw that representation of the 3D shape of dark matter, I thought to myself, where have I seen that shape before? Oh yes, it looks like cosmic dust!

Ann
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