APOD 15th May 06

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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APOD 15th May 06

Post by Nick » Mon May 15, 2006 7:39 am

At the very bottom of the picture is a small outcropping of what looks like a layered rock strata, from water perhaps? With old volcanic boulders lying on top - are there places on earth where this exists or does it present a unique situation?

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Post by harry » Mon May 15, 2006 8:16 am

Hello Nick

re: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060515.html

If we did not know better, we could say this image came from earth.

Yes there are rocks similar to this on earth.
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A couple of questions

Post by aichip » Mon May 15, 2006 2:13 pm

I have seen locations where volcanic rocks overlay sedimentary rocks, so that is no real mystery. On seeing this, however, I have two questions.

First, where is the volcano that produced these rocks? Looking at the maps, I see no local volcano so it makes me wonder how they got deposited on top of lower sediments at all.

Second, how did these chunks get uphill? If Mars is (and has been) tectonically dead, then the ground level has remained constant for many billions of years. Therefore, the sediments were emplaced long before the eruption that produced these vesicular rocks. But if that is the case, there must have been quite a lava flow, yet most of that would be expected to be downhill.

This is contrary to what we see in the bedrock for Gusev - it is a conglomerate of salts and gravel. 40% of the bedrock is a salt matrix binding the gravel and fragments together, telling us it was deposited in a large briny body of water. To be honest, looking at the "bullseye" pattern in this rock and its shape, it look far more like a coral chunk from a reef.

It has the proper shape, structure, and even shows evidence of growth due to the ring. If you really ask yourself these questions based on the bedrock and the fact that it was deposited from what appears to be an ocean, then you must admit to the possibility that these are not volcanic rocks at all. Then you have a reasonable answer for how the rocks got uphill and how they formed. This appears to be an eroded coral bed.
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Post by makc » Mon May 15, 2006 2:53 pm

there's an awesome martian party right behind a hill :) ;) 0508

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Post by RogerRabt » Mon May 15, 2006 2:59 pm

Any thoughts why Mars images aren't color corrected to remove the Martian atmospheric effects?

Image

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Post by RogerRabt » Mon May 15, 2006 3:04 pm

Well, that IMG didn't work. Sorry about that. Here's a link...

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/43cbfe80 ... EBY086aU86

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image color correction

Post by aichip » Mon May 15, 2006 5:10 pm

I don't know if it is legit to post a site here, so just google my name and go to the color page on my site for some information about that subject. The atmosphere is clearly transparent or we could not spot distant hills clearly.
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looks

Post by ta152h0 » Mon May 15, 2006 7:30 pm

looks like it has been processed by volcanic action and been sandblasted unmercifully. Pass the ice cold one, please :D Could it also be a meteorite that crumbled upon entry and ended up on top of the hill ?
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Post by BMAONE23 » Mon May 15, 2006 9:54 pm

The source for the volcanic activity could be from:

1) Large asteroid impacts, creating the Hellas basin.
2) As a result of and directly opposite this impact site, massive volcanic activity occurs on Olympus Mons.
3) The impact and subsequent eruption are so devistating that the water is evaporated into the atmosphere.
4) A nuclear winter scenerio ensues and the atmospheric water is settled at the poles while any remaining surface water is frozen.
5) Continued Olympus eruptions serve to build the mountain to tremendous heights with further eruptions causing atmospheric pressure to drop due to loss to space.
6) these very eruptions cause volcanic rocks to be blasted to such an altitude that they fall over the Gusev crater area and any place else within 1000 mile radius. (farther??? possibly)

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Typo in text: "Mar's northern hemisphere"

Post by keshlam » Tue May 16, 2006 12:50 am

Try either Mars' or Mars's.

(Although I do know someone named Mar, commenting about the amount of sunlight reaching an individual's northern hemisphere is generally considered impolite...)

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Post by harry » Tue May 16, 2006 9:24 am

Hello All

Response to aichip
I'm not a specialist in this field. In my opinion
First, where is the volcano that produced these rocks? Looking at the maps, I see no local volcano so it makes me wonder how they got deposited on top of lower sediments at all
.

The volcano may have been eroded over time. We mayhave to look at the volcanic activity study.
Second, how did these chunks get uphill? If Mars is (and has been) tectonically dead, then the ground level has remained constant for many billions of years. Therefore, the sediments were emplaced long before the eruption that produced these vesicular rocks. But if that is the case, there must have been quite a lava flow, yet most of that would be expected to be downhill.

These rocks are not from larva flows but from volcanic explosions, this is explained by the rock structure having bubbles. Also through time, uplift could be a possible reason for the folds in the landscape pushing up some areas. I would like to see if these rocks are also found in flat areas.


This is contrary to what we see in the bedrock for Gusev - it is a
conglomerate of salts and gravel. 40% of the bedrock is a salt matrix binding the gravel and fragments together, telling us it was deposited in a large briny body of water. To be honest, looking at the "bullseye" pattern in this rock and its shape, it look far more like a coral chunk from a reef.


As for briny water, I'm not 100% on that, i need more info.

I do not think coral would grow in such climate. There is no evidence of life past or present.
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Post by BMAONE23 » Tue May 16, 2006 5:07 pm

Harry,
Googling "Mars" and "Trilobite" gives this website

http://www.xenotechresearch.com/marsx.htm

The first image on the page is of "Bounce Rock" where Oppertunities lander struck on landing. It is a very good image of what appears to be a Trilobite.

(Smells like a fossil to me, If that is what it is)

Unless the JPL website was hacked at some point, the image is genuine at it also clearly appears in their image of Bounce Rock.

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Post by BMAONE23 » Tue May 16, 2006 5:12 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:Harry,
Googling "Mars" and "Trilobite" gives this website

http://www.xenotechresearch.com/marsx.htm

(Follow the link and go to images from 04-09-04 and 04-14-04 to find Bounce images) http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA05731.jpg

The first image on the page is of "Bounce Rock" where Oppertunities lander struck on landing. It is a very good image of what appears to be a Trilobite.

(Smells like a fossil to me, If that is what it is)

Unless the JPL website was hacked at some point, the image is genuine at it also clearly appears in their image of Bounce Rock.

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points to consider

Post by aichip » Tue May 16, 2006 5:29 pm

Hello to Harry.

You raise some good and analytical points (unlike the frivolous dismissal that someone else gave).

There might have been a more local volcano, but we would expect that the same forces of erosion would have acted on this area as would have eroded the volcano down. That would be some serious erosive force (although not entirely unheard of).

We know that if these are in fact igneous vesicular rocks, the volcano had to erupt well after the sediments were in place because the rocks are on top of the sediments as well as the sand and other materials on top of the sediments. The vesicular rocks are latecomers, by any measure.

As for lava flows versus explosive emplacement, consider that almost all vesicular rocks result from a flow of very hot, very fluid rock that contains a fair amounts of water vapor (which creates the bubbles). Look at pumice for a good example of this.

Local uplift is pretty unlikely for the following reasons. First, the layers of sediment at both Gusev and Meridiani are nearly identical, as is their elevation. The level of water present for the formation of these sediments was virtually the same, which can be verified by any topographic map of Mars. If the levels had changed, then it would imply that one or the other was higher or lower in the past (maybe both) but then it might also imply two wet periods of sedimentation. It appears that the Martian seas girdled the planet and that both these sites were at the same elevations simultaneously; i.e., long before any possible eruption.

As for brine, the report by Steven Squyres et al in Nature and other publications made it clear that it was the official position of NASA that large bodies of brine had to exist on the planet and that the bedrock was up to 40% salts and that the soil wa up to 50% salts.

Any sort of oceanic organisms would have been different in part due to the presence of calcium sulfate rather than calcium carbonate, meaning that their shells or constructions would have likely been crystallized gypsum, not limestone as we know it. But this might also mean that their tolerance for colder climates might have been different (which is impossible to say at present).

Mars definitely had salt oceans, plenty of water for geologic periods, and a thicker atmosphere in the past. NASA is clear on that. As for climate, well, that is entirely speculative. We cannot get a clear consensus on that yet as they still argue about many other things that are dependent on each other. Much is yet to be resolved there.

I appreciate your considered thoughts on this.
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Post by l3p3r » Wed May 17, 2006 1:14 pm

A quote from that xenotechresearch site:
What can be said? This is clearly a fossil of a trilobite, organisms that lived from about half a billion years ago to 210 million years ago on the Earth. Mars evolved identical sorts of life forms and this trilobite is proof of that. If this rock is on Mars, then so were trilobites, squids, sea urchins, sharks, sand dollars, and all sorts of aquatic organisms.
What an absurd interpretation. I ask, what are the chances of finding a fossil of exactly the same species on Mars as once existed on Earth, what are the chances that what we are actually looking at is a fossil, what are the chances that finding a pattern - thats right, a pattern which maybe resembles a fossil, implies the existence of 'identical sorts of life form' as on Earth.

I don't mean to crash the party, but this is a nonsense article with unreasonale claims and assumptions left right and centre, no doubt the product of thousands of hours of self-perpetuated obsession with the subject.

I think the chances of life once existing on mars are good, I think the chances of finding evidence to support this in the form of fossils is good. I do not think that one low quality image of the 'fossil' justifies these ridiculous claims. I encourage the author to return to the realm of sanity.

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off the topic, but okay

Post by aichip » Wed May 17, 2006 2:06 pm

I was hoping for some discussion on the features in the May 15 image, but this warrants a reply.
I ask, what are the chances of finding a fossil of exactly the same species on Mars as once existed on Earth
Nowhere does it say that this is exactly the same species as anything - only that it looks identical to terrestrial species. L3p3r has made an assumption there.
what are the chances that what we are actually looking at is a fossil
A good question. If you found many such examples, then the chances of being correct would strongly improve based simply on statistics, and the fact that Mars was known to have oceans long enough to create sedimentary bedrock full of salts.
what are the chances that finding a pattern - thats right, a pattern which maybe resembles a fossil, implies the existence of 'identical sorts of life form' as on Earth
Once more, if you found many such patterns and they were all in the same context - marine or aquatic organisms - then you would have to consider that you were on to something. A single example would be useless inmaking such a determination, but dozens or hundreds would strongly support the theory. Being able to repeat your findings is one of the strongest supporting points for a theory.
I do not think that one low quality image of the 'fossil' justifies these ridiculous claims.
Absolutely correct. You may want to look at this link:
http://www.xenotechresearch.com/marsgal2.htm
There are dozens of examples that are quite clear. Given the weight of evidence shown (and the fact that the images are all linked back to the original source, NASA/JPL) it becomes difficult to argue against.

So if you have one picture, no matter how good it is, then you suspect what seems to be an outrageous claim. That is good thinking. When you have two, three, four pictures, and they support the supposedly outrageous claim, then you have to consider that either what you know is wrong or what you are seeing is a hoax. When the source of the data is known to be reliable and unaltered, then you have even stronger support for the supposedly outrageous claim, and it is time to rethink your position.

Now, back to the topic at hand (the vesicular rocks in the image), I would like to see if anyone can find fault with the picture I have produced. The whole concept is to present evidence and theory and see how well they fit. I am of the opinion, based on experience, that erosion severe enough to wear down a local volcano would also have worn down these volcanic rocks. Therefore, there is no local volcano. Just an idea, but one that I feel merits a little thought.
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Post by BMAONE23 » Wed May 17, 2006 2:07 pm

Is it unreasonable to think that the processes involved in the establishment of and evolution of life in any given planetary ecosystem could progress along the similar lines and in similar directions producing similar creatures if the elements involved are in fact similar. (Oxygen Nitrogen atmosphere, carbon, hydrogen, sodium, phosphorous etc. to create DNA) Why couldn't evolution take similar/parallel paths if that is the path that leads to the formation of life?

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Post by harry » Wed May 17, 2006 2:24 pm

Hello All

I have looked at both links

Before I put further opinion of life on Mars. I need to see more evidence.

It is very interesting. Imagine fining life on Mars. Thats out of this world, so to speak.

I will come back to this,,,,,,,,,,,,sorry have to go and pick up the kids
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Post by Martin » Wed May 17, 2006 3:47 pm

To answer some earlier questions. Olympus Mons located on mars is the largest volcano in the entire solar system. Take in account, the lower gravity of mars / the explosive power of such a gigantic volcano and one does not have to wander too far to imagine a massive explosion from Olympus Mons could spread debris across most if not all of the planet. :?:

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Olympus Mons and low gravity

Post by aichip » Wed May 17, 2006 4:18 pm

This is a possible method of dispersing this rock, so let's look at the brass tacks a bit.

The lava in such an explosion would be hurled from the point of explosion in (probably) all directions. Looking at the caldera of Olympus Mons, there is no preferred direction of ejection. It is very broad and has little "containment" ability, unlike the narrow throast of a volcano that can eject material at very high speeds.

In layman's terms, a broad throat means low ejection speed. A narrow throat means high ejection speed. This principle is used in rifles, pistols, and cannons as well as other devices. The relationship is due to the confinement of the gas or other material that propels the bullet (or lava in this case).

Olympus Mons does not seem like a suitable ejection site for this and other reasons.
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More Martian volcano thoughts

Post by aichip » Wed May 17, 2006 4:22 pm

Another point I meant to make- the bulk of what is ejected from volcanoes is water. It provide the explosive power, and it is the propulsion for the materials such as rock and ash. Heat drives it, of course, but water is the main course. Some 70% to 90% of what comes out of volcanoes is water, so such an event would have provided a significant amount of water to the Martian environment.
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Post by harry » Thu May 18, 2006 7:57 am

Hello aichip

Like I said I do not know much, just taking part in this discussion.

You said
Another point I meant to make- the bulk of what is ejected from volcanoes is water. It provide the explosive power, and it is the propulsion for the materials such as rock and ash. Heat drives it, of course, but water is the main course. Some 70% to 90% of what comes out of volcanoes is water, so such an event would have provided a significant amount of water to the Martian environment.
Where did you get the info that the bulk of ejected material is water.
If there is water coming out, the gravity would not be able to hold it, particularly when it comes out super hot.
Much of the water came with each planet and some from icy comets. But science tells us that Mars is unable to hold water except for the poles where you have CO2 caps.

As for the water we may have to look at the evolution and origin of the solar system.
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Water from volcanic activity

Post by aichip » Thu May 18, 2006 1:34 pm

Do a quick google for water and volcano and you will see the monitoring data over the years for various volcanoes. They keep track of the solids and volatiles and water is far and away the largest component.
But science tells us that Mars is unable to hold water except for the poles where you have CO2 caps.
Actually, recent studies indicate that up to 98% of the mass of the polar caps on Mars is actually water ice. Water has no problem sticking around on Mars, but ultraviolet from sunlight breaks some of it down and allows the hydrogen to be lost to space. This is apparently where a lot of the water goes, if it is not underground and shielded from the sunlight.

It appears that any water or ice that has as little as a covering of dust on it to prevent exposure to solar UV can remain for millions of years. Check out the information on the frozen sea that was found on Mars' equator. Here is one such link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4285119.stm
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Post by l3p3r » Thu May 18, 2006 10:40 pm

thanks aichip
i get to slap myself for not doing my research
I think it is the unprofessional, arrogant writing style of the author which threw me the most, but now I see so many of these images of familiar patterns my suspicions are aroused. I vote for a lander to return rock samples from mars to earth with the intent of looking for fossils.

That said, if you start obsessing over anything, you start to see that thing everwhere. I don't doubt this has been a factor during this research.

Does JPL/NASA have a team for doing the same work as this? maybe some second opinions on the images posted on this site?

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Post by harry » Fri May 19, 2006 11:09 am

Hello aichip

You must love Mars and thats great, because you can educate some of us, or maybe just me.

Thank you for your time.

I will read further on your points.
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