APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by AVAO » Tue May 23, 2023 7:41 pm

Chris Alex wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:29 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:54 am
Ann wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 7:06 pm What about the new supernova in M101, SN 2023ifx? Well... it looks a bit on the faint side to me. Of course, it is still brightening.
Indeed. Just imaging it right now. It's currently 20 times brighter than the core of M101!
_
m101_2023.05.23.jpg
I second Ann's "wow!" Thanks for sharing this picture! (I also like how it brings out how thick and massive M101 is) - I wonder: what is the size of the area covered by the supernova? If that bright spot were instead, say, a star cluster, what would its dimension approximately be?

...Nice area...
Image
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/529 ... bcaf_o.jpg
jac berne (flickr)

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by VictorBorun » Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 am

If only we could add neutrino and gravitation wave signals…

Imagine a scenario

1) where SN 2023ixf is first forming two or three neutron stars that then spiral down and form a black hole

2) where some yet-to-be-discovered process generate some dark matter particles helping to shed energy and spin

3) where a two neutron stars in a blink of eye merge, but having co-directional spins have to pinch the space-time fabric, fire a one-direction graviwaves packet and recoil so strongly, that the emerged black hole is kicked out of the supernova remnant and first out of the supernova flash cloud

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 26, 2023 12:57 pm

VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 am If only we could add neutrino and gravitation wave signals…

Imagine a scenario

1) where SN 2023ixf is first forming two or three neutron stars that then spiral down and form a black hole

2) where some yet-to-be-discovered process generate some dark matter particles helping to shed energy and spin

3) where a two neutron stars in a blink of eye merge, but having co-directional spins have to pinch the space-time fabric, fire a one-direction graviwaves packet and recoil so strongly, that the emerged black hole is kicked out of the supernova remnant and first out of the supernova flash cloud
While such observations would be great, this particular event involves a type II core collapse supernova, which isn't associated with a binary precursor.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by VictorBorun » Fri May 26, 2023 1:51 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:57 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 am If only we could add neutrino and gravitation wave signals…

Imagine a scenario

1) where SN 2023ixf is first forming two or three neutron stars that then spiral down and form a black hole

2) where some yet-to-be-discovered process generate some dark matter particles helping to shed energy and spin

3) where a two neutron stars in a blink of eye merge, but having co-directional spins have to pinch the space-time fabric, fire a one-direction graviwaves packet and recoil so strongly, that the emerged black hole is kicked out of the supernova remnant and first out of the supernova flash cloud
While such observations would be great, this particular event involves a type II core collapse supernova, which isn't associated with a binary precursor.
I was trying to say that a collapse may form a neutron star binary inside the collapsing stellar core, in a tight orbit in a dense disk or ring.
Of course, the progenitor has to possess enough mass for all, like 10 suns

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 26, 2023 2:18 pm

VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:51 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:57 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:59 am If only we could add neutrino and gravitation wave signals…

Imagine a scenario

1) where SN 2023ixf is first forming two or three neutron stars that then spiral down and form a black hole

2) where some yet-to-be-discovered process generate some dark matter particles helping to shed energy and spin

3) where a two neutron stars in a blink of eye merge, but having co-directional spins have to pinch the space-time fabric, fire a one-direction graviwaves packet and recoil so strongly, that the emerged black hole is kicked out of the supernova remnant and first out of the supernova flash cloud
While such observations would be great, this particular event involves a type II core collapse supernova, which isn't associated with a binary precursor.
I was trying to say that a collapse may form a neutron star binary inside the collapsing stellar core, in a tight orbit in a dense disk or ring.
Of course, the progenitor has to possess enough mass for all, like 10 suns
I can't think of any reason that a core collapse would form a binary neutron star.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by VictorBorun » Fri May 26, 2023 5:16 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:18 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:51 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:57 pm

While such observations would be great, this particular event involves a type II core collapse supernova, which isn't associated with a binary precursor.
I was trying to say that a collapse may form a neutron star binary inside the collapsing stellar core, in a tight orbit in a dense disk or ring.
Of course, the progenitor has to possess enough mass for all, like 10 suns
I can't think of any reason that a core collapse would form a binary neutron star.
everywhere you look many stars and multiple stellar systems form in a random cloud once the gravitation overcomes the pressure.
Why not mirror it, in a rapid mode, where a massive star core collapses once the fuel is exhausted and the pressure loses to the gravitation?

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 26, 2023 7:52 pm

VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:16 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:18 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:51 pm

I was trying to say that a collapse may form a neutron star binary inside the collapsing stellar core, in a tight orbit in a dense disk or ring.
Of course, the progenitor has to possess enough mass for all, like 10 suns
I can't think of any reason that a core collapse would form a binary neutron star.
everywhere you look many stars and multiple stellar systems form in a random cloud once the gravitation overcomes the pressure.
Why not mirror it, in a rapid mode, where a massive star core collapses once the fuel is exhausted and the pressure loses to the gravitation?
The dynamics are radically different. Stellar systems form from slow viscous planar processes. A supernova is a rapid (relativistic) spherical collapse.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by VictorBorun » Fri May 26, 2023 10:06 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:52 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:16 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:18 pm

I can't think of any reason that a core collapse would form a binary neutron star.
everywhere you look many stars and multiple stellar systems form in a random cloud once the gravitation overcomes the pressure.
Why not mirror it, in a rapid mode, where a massive star core collapses once the fuel is exhausted and the pressure loses to the gravitation?
The dynamics are radically different. Stellar systems form from slow viscous planar processes. A supernova is a rapid (relativistic) spherical collapse.
If the collapse is spherical, the spin of the progenitor transfers to one neutron star, but it can not take that much, can it? Mostly the spin has to be shed off in a massive blow up.

But if a ring forms in the collapsing stellar core and the ring breaks into 2 or 3 neutron stars, the spin of the progenitor transfers to the their orbital spin, and that can absorb much more of the mass and spin. As the 2 or 3 NSs feed, their total mass grow and the gravitation pull to the centre grows like mass*mass, so the acceleration grows like mass and the square of the orbiting velocity grows like mass; it lets the NSs take more and more of the spin.

Well, if they are 3, then the least massive is eventually kicked off carrying away the spin and the other 2 finally merge. There is got to be a runaway NS then.
Last edited by VictorBorun on Fri May 26, 2023 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 26, 2023 10:10 pm

VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:06 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:52 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:16 pm

everywhere you look many stars and multiple stellar systems form in a random cloud once the gravitation overcomes the pressure.
Why not mirror it, in a rapid mode, where a massive star core collapses once the fuel is exhausted and the pressure loses to the gravitation?
The dynamics are radically different. Stellar systems form from slow viscous planar processes. A supernova is a rapid (relativistic) spherical collapse.
If the collapse is spherical, the spin of the progenitor transfers to one neutron star, but it can not take that much, can it? Mostly the spin has to be shed off in a massive blow up.

But if a ring forms in the collapsing stellar core and the ring breaks into 2 or 3 neutron stars, the spin of the progenitor transfers to the their orbital spin, and that can absorb much more of the mass and spin. As the 2 or 3 NSs feed, their total mass grow and the gravitation pull to the centre grows like mass*mass, so the acceleration grows like mass and the square of the orbiting velocity grows like mass; it lets the NSs take more and more of the spin.
Why does the spin need to be "shed off"? The explosion is a bounce. I don't see any mechanism, given a substantially spherically symmetric event, for there to somehow be two cores produced.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by VictorBorun » Fri May 26, 2023 10:13 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:10 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:06 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:52 pm
The dynamics are radically different. Stellar systems form from slow viscous planar processes. A supernova is a rapid (relativistic) spherical collapse.
If the collapse is spherical, the spin of the progenitor transfers to one neutron star, but it can not take that much, can it? Mostly the spin has to be shed off in a massive blow up.

But if a ring forms in the collapsing stellar core and the ring breaks into 2 or 3 neutron stars, the spin of the progenitor transfers to the their orbital spin, and that can absorb much more of the mass and spin. As the 2 or 3 NSs feed, their total mass grow and the gravitation pull to the centre grows like mass*mass, so the acceleration grows like mass and the square of the orbiting velocity grows like mass; it lets the NSs take more and more of the spin.
Why does the spin need to be "shed off"? The explosion is a bounce. I don't see any mechanism, given a substantially spherically symmetric event, for there to somehow be two cores produced.
because a compact thing like neutron star or black hole has a small radius, and spin is mass*velocity*radius

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Re: APOD: Supernova Discovered in Nearby M101... (2023 May 22)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 26, 2023 10:17 pm

VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:13 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:10 pm
VictorBorun wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:06 pm

If the collapse is spherical, the spin of the progenitor transfers to one neutron star, but it can not take that much, can it? Mostly the spin has to be shed off in a massive blow up.

But if a ring forms in the collapsing stellar core and the ring breaks into 2 or 3 neutron stars, the spin of the progenitor transfers to the their orbital spin, and that can absorb much more of the mass and spin. As the 2 or 3 NSs feed, their total mass grow and the gravitation pull to the centre grows like mass*mass, so the acceleration grows like mass and the square of the orbiting velocity grows like mass; it lets the NSs take more and more of the spin.
Why does the spin need to be "shed off"? The explosion is a bounce. I don't see any mechanism, given a substantially spherically symmetric event, for there to somehow be two cores produced.
because a compact thing like neutron star or black hole has a small radius, and spin is mass*velocity*radius
Yes. And they often have absurdly high spin rates as a consequence. Because angular momentum is conserved, and because such spin rates, hundreds of revolutions per second, don't disrupt the body.
Chris

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NOIRLab: Gemini North Back On Sky

Post by bystander » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:59 pm

Gemini North Back on Sky with Dazzling
Image of Supernova in the Pinwheel Galaxy

NOIRLab Photo Release | Gemini North | 2023 Jun 07

Gemini North returns to cosmic exploration “with a bang” following repair and refurbishment of its 8-meter primary mirror

Gemini North, part of the International Gemini Observatory operated by NSF’s NOIRLab, is back observing the night sky following the repair and refurbishment of its primary mirror. The telescope’s debut observation captured the supernova dubbed SN 2023ixf, which was discovered on 19 May by Japanese astronomer Koichi Itagaki. This dazzling point of light, the closest supernova seen in the past five years, is located along one of the spiral arms of the Pinwheel Galaxy (Messier 101).

The Gemini North telescope, one half of the International Gemini Observatory operated by NSF’s NOIRLab, has returned from a seven-month hiatus literally with a bang, as it has captured the spectacular aftermath of a supernova, a massive star that exploded in the large, face-on, spiral Pinwheel Galaxy (Messier 101). The supernova, named SN 2023ixf (lower left), was discovered on 19 May by amateur astronomer Koichi Itagaki.

Since its discovery, observers around the globe have pointed their telescopes toward Messier 101 to get a look at the burst of light. Over the coming months, Gemini North will allow astronomers to study how the light from the supernova fades and how its spectrum evolves over time, helping astronomers better understand the physics of such explosions. ...
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