APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

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APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by APOD Robot » Fri Jan 10, 2025 5:06 am

Image Young Stars, Dark Nebulae

Explanation: An unassuming region in the constellation Taurus holds these dark and dusty nebulae. Scattered through the scene, stars in multiple star systems are forming within their natal Taurus molecular cloud complex some 450 light-years away. Millions of years young and still going through stellar adolescence, the stars are variable in brightness and in the late phases of their gravitational collapse. Known as T-Tauri class stars they tend to be faint and take on a yellowish hue in the image. One of the brightest T-Tauri stars in Taurus, V773 (aka HD283447) is near the center of the telescopic frame that spans over 1 degree. Toward the top is the dense, dark marking on the sky cataloged as Barnard 209.

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by RJN » Fri Jan 10, 2025 4:59 pm

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by owlice » Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:06 pm

And we're back, woo-hoo!
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:06 pm

From the link to the explanation of what a T-Tauri star is:
astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos wrote:Indeed, for up to another ~100 million years, the emitted radiation will come entirely from the gravitational energy released as the star contracts under its own self-gravity.
I always find that surprising! That it takes so long for a star to collapse and start fusing, and yet during that time gravity alone powers its output! The universe really does run slowly. Very slowly most of the time. At least compared to the evanescent lives of we humans.
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Christian G. » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:34 pm

Hot bright stars emerge from cold dark clouds… The heavens are full of magic.
B209V773Tau_1024.png
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Christian G. » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:43 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:06 pm From the link to the explanation of what a T-Tauri star is:
astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos wrote:Indeed, for up to another ~100 million years, the emitted radiation will come entirely from the gravitational energy released as the star contracts under its own self-gravity.
I always find that surprising! That it takes so long for a star to collapse and start fusing, and yet during that time gravity alone powers its output! The universe really does run slowly. Very slowly most of the time. At least compared to the evanescent lives of we humans.
When put in these terms - gravity "powers" the star's output - I understand this to mean that gravity compresses the gas and thus raises its temperature to the point that it emits radiation. Is this a correct layman's way to describe "radiation by release of gravitational energy"? Or is there more to this process?

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:55 pm

Christian G. wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:43 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:06 pm From the link to the explanation of what a T-Tauri star is:
astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos wrote:Indeed, for up to another ~100 million years, the emitted radiation will come entirely from the gravitational energy released as the star contracts under its own self-gravity.
I always find that surprising! That it takes so long for a star to collapse and start fusing, and yet during that time gravity alone powers its output! The universe really does run slowly. Very slowly most of the time. At least compared to the evanescent lives of we humans.
When put in these terms - gravity "powers" the star's output - I understand this to mean that gravity compresses the gas and thus raises its temperature to the point that it emits radiation. Is this a correct layman's way to describe "radiation by release of gravitational energy"? Or is there more to this process?
That's basically it. (But all matter emits radiation if its temperature isn't absolute zero.) You have a bunch of atoms moving around, which means they have kinetic energy, which is heat. Squeeze them into a smaller space, the energy density increases, so it gets hotter. This energy resists the collapse, which is why the process can take millions of years. Eventually the gas is hot enough for fusion to begin, and the star enters the main part of its existence.
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Christian G. » Fri Jan 10, 2025 9:02 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:55 pm
Christian G. wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:43 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 7:06 pm From the link to the explanation of what a T-Tauri star is:



I always find that surprising! That it takes so long for a star to collapse and start fusing, and yet during that time gravity alone powers its output! The universe really does run slowly. Very slowly most of the time. At least compared to the evanescent lives of we humans.
When put in these terms - gravity "powers" the star's output - I understand this to mean that gravity compresses the gas and thus raises its temperature to the point that it emits radiation. Is this a correct layman's way to describe "radiation by release of gravitational energy"? Or is there more to this process?
That's basically it. (But all matter emits radiation if its temperature isn't absolute zero.) You have a bunch of atoms moving around, which means they have kinetic energy, which is heat. Squeeze them into a smaller space, the energy density increases, so it gets hotter. This energy resists the collapse, which is why the process can take millions of years. Eventually the gas is hot enough for fusion to begin, and the star enters the main part of its existence.
Thank you!

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Ann » Sat Jan 11, 2025 5:52 am

This diagram showing the pre-main sequence track might be helpful:

https://www.ucolick.org/~bolte/AY4_00/w ... ation.html

The proto-star in the diagram starts out with a radius of a hundred solar. It is in the process of shrinking, and it is really bright, much brighter than it will be when it first reaches the main sequence (blue line). But at this stage the pre-main sequence star is also very cool.

When the proto-star has shrunk to a radius of ten solar, it is still considerably brighter than it will be when it reaches the main sequence. But it is less bright and less cool than when its radius was a hundred solar.

What happens when the star reaches the main sequence is that the star stops shrinking, and the heat production that came from the continuous shrinkage stops. Instead, the star starts fusing hydrogen to helium right in its very core. Over time, the star will grow brighter even while it stays on the main sequence, probably because more and more of its central region gets involved in hydrogen fusion - the hydrogen-fusing part of its core grows larger, or so I believe.

Of course, when the star has depleted its core hydrogen, the core starts shrinking again, which generates a lot of heat. Meanwhile, the star has now yet another heat source, namely a hydrogen-fusing shell around the shrinking and therefore heat-producing core. This double heat production makes the star's outer layers expand mightily, turning the star into a red giant.

The outer layers of the red giant are eventually lost, and the hot shrunken core is revealed: A tiny white dwarf.


The white dwarf can't shrink any more, due to electron degeneracy pressure. The electron degeneracy pressure stops any two electrons from occupying the same "space". (There is a quantum term for this, but in layman's terms that is what electron degeneracy pressure means.) The electron degeneracy pressure will keep the white dwarf stable as long as its mass does not exceed 1.4 solar masses. Above this mass, the electron degeneracy pressure is overwhelmed.

There is one thing that could make a white dwarf grow in mass to the point that the electron degeneracy is overwhelmed, and that is the presence of a very nearby companion star that could start dumping gas onto the white dwarf:

https://w.astro.berkeley.edu/~basri/ast ... lec16.html

In the illustration, the donor star is a main sequence star. That is rarely the case. Instead the donor star is typically a swollen red giant.

Often the process of a companion dumping matter onto a white dwarf just leads to explosions on the surface of the white dwarf, nova explosions, which leave the white dwarf itself unharmed:


But occasionally, if matter is dumped onto the white dwarf too fast, and the mass of the white dwarf itself is close to 1.4 solar masses, this could lead to mass increase that overwhelms the electron degeneracy pressure and makes the white dwarf shrink precipitously. When the white dwarf shrinks so violently its temperature spikes. And because the white dwarf is really made of "prime fuel", helium, oxygen and carbon, then 1.4 solar masses of fuel suddenly explodes in a raging "deflagration" that leaves nothing behind.

Or so I understand it.


We don't have to worry about Sirius triggering a supernova explosion in its white dwarf companion, in the unlikely event that humans are still here when Sirius turns into a red giant. Sirius and its white dwarf companion are too far apart for any mass transfer to happen between them.

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Ann » Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:29 am

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by AVAO » Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:33 am

Ann wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:29 am Speaking about young stars and dark nebulas, star formation often takes place at the ends of long dust lanes:


Ann

I would rather say that they form at the head of the dust filaments.
In the case of today's APOD, this shows a knot of a filament strand, which is itself much larger and lies between the Pleiades and the California Nebula.

bigg: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/542 ... 6ecf_o.jpg
Original data: NASA/ESA (DSS2 blue, AllWISE, more) jac berne (flickr)

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Ann » Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:47 am

AVAO wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:33 am
Ann wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:29 am Speaking about young stars and dark nebulas, star formation often takes place at the ends of long dust lanes:


Ann

I would rather say that they form at the head of the dust filaments.
In the case of today's APOD, this shows a knot of a filament strand, which is itself much larger and lies between the Pleiades and the California Nebula.
bigg: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/542 ... 6ecf_o.jpg
Original data: NASA/ESA (DSS2 blue, AllWISE, more) jac berne (flickr)
Wow, amazing, Jac! What's that big bright white thing between the California Nebula and the Pleiades? Is that Atik and IC 348?

(And you are right of course... Star formation takes place at the head of dust filaments, not at the end of them.)

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by AVAO » Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:19 am

Ann wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:47 am
AVAO wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:33 am
Ann wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:29 am Speaking about young stars and dark nebulas, star formation often takes place at the ends of long dust lanes:


Ann

I would rather say that they form at the head of the dust filaments.
In the case of today's APOD, this shows a knot of a filament strand, which is itself much larger and lies between the Pleiades and the California Nebula.
bigg: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/542 ... 6ecf_o.jpg
Original data: NASA/ESA (DSS2 blue, AllWISE, more) jac berne (flickr)
Wow, amazing, Jac! What's that big bright white thing between the California Nebula and the Pleiades? Is that Atik and IC 348?

(And you are right of course... Star formation takes place at the head of dust filaments, not at the end of them.)

Ann

yep ,-) viewtopic.php?t=43339#p333888

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Ann » Sat Jan 11, 2025 3:36 pm

AVAO wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:19 am
Ann wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:47 am
AVAO wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 7:33 am


I would rather say that they form at the head of the dust filaments.
In the case of today's APOD, this shows a knot of a filament strand, which is itself much larger and lies between the Pleiades and the California Nebula.
bigg: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/542 ... 6ecf_o.jpg
Original data: NASA/ESA (DSS2 blue, AllWISE, more) jac berne (flickr)
Wow, amazing, Jac! What's that big bright white thing between the California Nebula and the Pleiades? Is that Atik and IC 348?

(And you are right of course... Star formation takes place at the head of dust filaments, not at the end of them.)

Ann

yep ,-) viewtopic.php?t=43339#p333888
So I had posted that image by Matt Dieterich a little more than a year ago (and Orin was alive and commented on the APOD in question, dear Orin). I had completely forgotten.

Anyway, my annotations were not complete because there there was a fairly large brownish thing with a pinkish rim that drove me crazy. It turned out to be Sharpless 216, one of the very nearest planetaries. And right next to it, would you believe it, is an even fainter (but much more distant) supernova remnant, Sharpless 221.

Perseus molecular cloud Matt Dieterich annotated.png
Perseus molecular cloud. Credit: Matt Dieterich.

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Christian G. » Sun Jan 12, 2025 3:48 pm

Ann wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 5:52 am This diagram showing the pre-main sequence track might be helpful:

https://www.ucolick.org/~bolte/AY4_00/w ... ation.html

The proto-star in the diagram starts out with a radius of a hundred solar. It is in the process of shrinking, and it is really bright, much brighter than it will be when it first reaches the main sequence (blue line). But at this stage the pre-main sequence star is also very cool.

When the proto-star has shrunk to a radius of ten solar, it is still considerably brighter than it will be when it reaches the main sequence. But it is less bright and less cool than when its radius was a hundred solar.

What happens when the star reaches the main sequence is that the star stops shrinking, and the heat production that came from the continuous shrinkage stops. Instead, the star starts fusing hydrogen to helium right in its very core. Over time, the star will grow brighter even while it stays on the main sequence, probably because more and more of its central region gets involved in hydrogen fusion - the hydrogen-fusing part of its core grows larger, or so I believe.

Of course, when the star has depleted its core hydrogen, the core starts shrinking again, which generates a lot of heat. Meanwhile, the star has now yet another heat source, namely a hydrogen-fusing shell around the shrinking and therefore heat-producing core. This double heat production makes the star's outer layers expand mightily, turning the star into a red giant.

The outer layers of the red giant are eventually lost, and the hot shrunken core is revealed: A tiny white dwarf.


The white dwarf can't shrink any more, due to electron degeneracy pressure. The electron degeneracy pressure stops any two electrons from occupying the same "space". (There is a quantum term for this, but in layman's terms that is what electron degeneracy pressure means.) The electron degeneracy pressure will keep the white dwarf stable as long as its mass does not exceed 1.4 solar masses. Above this mass, the electron degeneracy pressure is overwhelmed.

There is one thing that could make a white dwarf grow in mass to the point that the electron degeneracy is overwhelmed, and that is the presence of a very nearby companion star that could start dumping gas onto the white dwarf:

https://w.astro.berkeley.edu/~basri/ast ... lec16.html

In the illustration, the donor star is a main sequence star. That is rarely the case. Instead the donor star is typically a swollen red giant.

Often the process of a companion dumping matter onto a white dwarf just leads to explosions on the surface of the white dwarf, nova explosions, which leave the white dwarf itself unharmed:


But occasionally, if matter is dumped onto the white dwarf too fast, and the mass of the white dwarf itself is close to 1.4 solar masses, this could lead to mass increase that overwhelms the electron degeneracy pressure and makes the white dwarf shrink precipitously. When the white dwarf shrinks so violently its temperature spikes. And because the white dwarf is really made of "prime fuel", helium, oxygen and carbon, then 1.4 solar masses of fuel suddenly explodes in a raging "deflagration" that leaves nothing behind.

Or so I understand it.


We don't have to worry about Sirius triggering a supernova explosion in its white dwarf companion, in the unlikely event that humans are still here when Sirius turns into a red giant. Sirius and its white dwarf companion are too far apart for any mass transfer to happen between them.

Ann
Ann, this may sound overly enthusiastic or gaga, but when I read the story of star formation as you've told it here, which might well have included an earlier chapter starting as far as the Big Bang, then further ones all the way to us humans, to me it's like that bedtime story a child loves to hear over and over again! - It's called science but it can bring one's mind way more than mere knowledge: AWE!
Thank you!

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Christian G. » Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:24 pm

And here, another bit of this awe: The link beneath the diagram you showed mentions how cold the nebula temperature must be if a star is to have any chance to form: 10 kelvin or - 263˚C! So from cloud collapse to core collapse, the stages of a massive star's life go from near absolute zero to over a billion degrees!

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:44 pm

Christian G. wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:24 pm And here, another bit of this awe: The link beneath the diagram you showed mentions how cold the nebula temperature must be if a star is to have any chance to form: 10 kelvin! So from cloud collapse to core collapse, the stages of a massive star's life go from near absolute zero to over a billion degrees!
A billion degrees? That doesn't sound right. More like tens of millions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution#:~:text=eventually%20reach%2010%20million wrote:For a more-massive protostar, the core temperature will eventually reach 10 million kelvin, initiating the proton–proton chain reaction and allowing hydrogen to fuse, first to deuterium and then to helium.
Unless you are referring to times shortly after the Big Bang.

EDIT: oops - I stand corrected. Apparently, the cores of neutron stars can reach 1 trillion °K! See https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang ... illion%20K
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:52 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:44 pm EDIT: oops - I stand corrected. Apparently, the cores of neutron stars can reach 1 trillion °K!
Nit. Kelvins are kelvins. Not degrees, not degrees K, not °K. Just K.
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Christian G. » Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:03 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:44 pm
Christian G. wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:24 pm And here, another bit of this awe: The link beneath the diagram you showed mentions how cold the nebula temperature must be if a star is to have any chance to form: 10 kelvin! So from cloud collapse to core collapse, the stages of a massive star's life go from near absolute zero to over a billion degrees!
A billion degrees? That doesn't sound right. More like tens of millions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution#:~:text=eventually%20reach%2010%20million wrote:For a more-massive protostar, the core temperature will eventually reach 10 million kelvin, initiating the proton–proton chain reaction and allowing hydrogen to fuse, first to deuterium and then to helium.
Unless you are referring to times shortly after the Big Bang.

EDIT: oops - I stand corrected. Apparently, the cores of neutron stars can reach 1 trillion °K! See https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang ... illion%20K
I was referring to core collapse , i.e. the supernova stage. But the whole range is something like 10 million degrees to fuse hydrogen, 100 million for helium, 500 million for carbon, and the numbers keep rising through neon, oxygen until a billion degrees to fuse the silicium into iron. Then kaboom!
Last edited by Christian G. on Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:08 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:52 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:44 pm EDIT: oops - I stand corrected. Apparently, the cores of neutron stars can reach 1 trillion °K!
Nit. Kelvins are kelvins. Not degrees, not degrees K, not °K. Just K.
Ah yes. The article omits the "degree". And here I was thinking I was correcting them! But the "width" of 1 Kelvin is the same as 1°C, right?
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:14 pm

Christian G. wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:03 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:44 pm
Christian G. wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:24 pm And here, another bit of this awe: The link beneath the diagram you showed mentions how cold the nebula temperature must be if a star is to have any chance to form: 10 kelvin! So from cloud collapse to core collapse, the stages of a massive star's life go from near absolute zero to over a billion degrees!
A billion degrees? That doesn't sound right. More like tens of millions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution#:~:text=eventually%20reach%2010%20million wrote:For a more-massive protostar, the core temperature will eventually reach 10 million kelvin, initiating the proton–proton chain reaction and allowing hydrogen to fuse, first to deuterium and then to helium.
Unless you are referring to times shortly after the Big Bang.

EDIT: oops - I stand corrected. Apparently, the cores of neutron stars can reach 1 trillion °K! See https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang ... illion%20K
I was referring to core collapse , i.e. the supernova stage. But the whole range is something like 10 million degrees to fuse hydrogen, 100 million for helium, 500 million for carbon, and the numbers keep rising through neon, oxygen until a billion degrees for the silicium core. Then kaboom!
Right you are. There's a very nice table here: https://sites.uni.edu/morgans/astro/cou ... usion.html

stellar fusion temperatures.jpg
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:16 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:08 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:52 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:44 pm EDIT: oops - I stand corrected. Apparently, the cores of neutron stars can reach 1 trillion °K!
Nit. Kelvins are kelvins. Not degrees, not degrees K, not °K. Just K.
Ah yes. The article omits the "degree". And here I was thinking I was correcting them! But the "width" of 1 Kelvin is the same as 1°C, right?
Yes. The only difference between the kelvin and Celsius scales is the zero point.
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Re: APOD: Young Stars, Dark Nebulae (2025 Jan 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:21 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:16 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:08 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 5:52 pm

Nit. Kelvins are kelvins. Not degrees, not degrees K, not °K. Just K.
Ah yes. The article omits the "degree". And here I was thinking I was correcting them! But the "width" of 1 Kelvin is the same as 1°C, right?
Yes. The only difference between the kelvin and Celsius scales is the zero point.
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