APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

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APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by APOD Robot » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:07 am

Image Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275

Explanation: Active galaxy NGC 1275 is the central, dominant member of the large and relatively nearby Perseus Cluster of Galaxies. Wild-looking at visible wavelengths, the active galaxy is also a prodigious source of x-rays and radio emission. NGC 1275 accretes matter as entire galaxies fall into it, ultimately feeding a supermassive black hole at the galaxy's core. This color composite image, recreated from archival Hubble Space Telescope data, highlights the resulting galactic debris and filaments of glowing gas, some up to 20,000 light-years long. The filaments persist in NGC 1275, even though the turmoil of galactic collisions should destroy them. What keeps the filaments together? Observations indicate that the structures, pushed out from the galaxy's center by the black hole's activity, are held together by magnetic fields. Also known as Perseus A, NGC 1275 spans over 100,000 light years and lies about 230 million light years away.

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Ann » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:13 am

Nice! NGC 1275 is a favorite galaxy of mine. Do you realize that those tentacles of gas and stars extending from this galaxy make it ever so slightly like a galaxy-size version of the Tarantula Nebula in the Large Magellanic cloud?

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Beyond » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:52 am

The title of the Apod picture of the day is "Active Galaxy NGC 1275" and yet it also says that there are magnet forces holding at least parts of it in place. My question would be -- is the Galaxy waxing or waneing?? It is implied that at the moment parts are being held in place so it would seem to me we are looking at a Galaxy that is either coming into being or going to Hell without a hand basket. The picture does look nice though.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by tesla » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:46 am

What keeps the filaments together? well that should be obvious. The filaments are held together by magnetic fields, (how do you measure magnetic fields 230 million light years away?), which implies electrical current. No other reason. (These are not fridge magnets)
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Ann » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:07 am

Perseus A,NGC 1275, is like a version of NGC 5128, also known as Centaurus A. In both cases we are talking about a hapless spiral galaxy falling straight into colossal elliptical galaxy and setting off all kinds of stellar fireworks.

Image

Centaurus A.

Image

A multi-wavelength image of Centaurus A.

As for Perseus A, I love this Chandra image of the incredible sound waves that are created as the spiral galaxy crashes into the elliptical galaxy:

Image

Look closely at the image on the left, and you can spot the most prominent visiual-light "tentacles" of Perseus A, the ones that are so obvious in today's APOD. The other things in the pictures are all kinds of shock waves and sound waves. I read somewhere that Perseus A is actually playing a musical "note" with its soundwaves, although this note is a hundred or so octaves below the range of human hearing!

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Marty H » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:03 am

Perseus A is one of my favourite galaxies because it's strange. Its structure is unlike anything else out there I've seen. Gas filaments along lines of magnetism?! It's a cool-looking galaxy and it has mystique. It's exciting to know about the weird stuff in astronomy.

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by teragigamegaelctronovolt » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:25 am

(...) filaments of glowing gas, some up to 20,000 light-years long. The filaments persist in NGC 1275, even though the turmoil of galactic collisions should destroy them. What keeps the filaments together? Observations indicate that the structures, pushed out from the galaxy's center by the black hole's activity, are held together by magnetic fields.
ekhem... I think some ppl know what that means ? :)

I just don't want to start flame here by known perspecitve oponents... but come on how long can it take to SEE :roll:

Cheers 8-)

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by geckzilla » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:34 am

Anyone know what the faint, yellow, symmetrical structure on the right, mid upper edge is?
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by owlice » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:18 am

tesla wrote:What keeps the filaments together? well that should be obvious. The filaments are held together by magnetic fields, (how do you measure magnetic fields 230 million light years away?), which implies electrical current. No other reason. (These are not fridge magnets)
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by orin stepanek » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:56 am

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080822.html Are we looking at some kind of galaxy merger here?
NGC 1275 accretes matter as entire galaxies fall into it, ultimately feeding a supermassive black hole at the galaxy's core.
Sounds like this galaxies is growing by swallowing smaller galaxies. Or is everything going into the black hole?
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:17 pm

beyond wrote:The title of the Apod picture of the day is "Active Galaxy NGC 1275" and yet it also says that there are magnet forces holding at least parts of it in place. My question would be -- is the Galaxy waxing or waneing?? It is implied that at the moment parts are being held in place so it would seem to me we are looking at a Galaxy that is either coming into being or going to Hell without a hand basket. The picture does look nice though.
The galaxy is held together by gravity. Magnetic forces are not strong enough to do this. What magnetic fields are doing is guiding and focusing tenuous filaments of ionized gas. These filaments make up only a tiny fraction of the galaxy's mass. They are visually impressive, but not a structurally important part of the galaxy.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:20 pm

orin stepanek wrote:http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080822.html Are we looking at some kind of galaxy merger here?
NGC 1275 accretes matter as entire galaxies fall into it, ultimately feeding a supermassive black hole at the galaxy's core.
Sounds like this galaxies is growing by swallowing smaller galaxies. Or is everything going into the black hole?
Only a small fraction of this or other galaxies goes into the black hole. The galaxy itself absorbs other galaxies that collide with it, but most of that new material simply ends up in orbit like the existing stars. It only requires a tiny fraction of the mass of a galaxy falling into a supermassive black hole to produce a highly active core.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by orin stepanek » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:32 pm

Thanks Chris; that's what I thought but I wasn't sure. :)
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:01 pm

geckzilla wrote:Anyone know what the faint, yellow, symmetrical structure on the right, mid upper edge is?
All the fuzzy yellow objects around the edges are background galaxies. The one you are referring to doesn't seem to be in the catalogs called up by VizieR, so I don't know its designation.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Beyond » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:22 pm

That faint yellow mid upper edge galaxy also looks like its in a very faint ghostly jar.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by dougettinger » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:25 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:The galaxy is held together by gravity. Magnetic forces are not strong enough to do this. What magnetic fields are doing is guiding and focusing tenuous filaments of ionized gas. These filaments make up only a tiny fraction of the galaxy's mass. They are visually impressive, but not a structurally important part of the galaxy.
How do astronomers know that the observed filaments are held together by guiding magnetic fields ? Is the reason that gravity fields cannot explain the organization of these filaments of gas and dust ? What causes these magnetic fields and makes them very long ? Is it possible that magnetic fields guide the spiral arms of spiral galaxies in a similar fashion ?

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:44 pm

dougettinger wrote:How do astronomers know that the observed filaments are held together by guiding magnetic fields ? Is the reason that gravity fields cannot explain the organization of these filaments of gas and dust ?
The material is very tenuous- too much so for self-gravitation to hold it together. It is in an energetic environment, so without something to hold it together, it would all just blow away and dissipate. It is known that supermassive black holes often have powerful magnetic fields, so that's a reasonable assumption as to the source of the force holding the material together. I suspect that people have done the necessary calculations to demonstrate that reasonable field strengths can explain the structure seen.
What causes these magnetic fields and makes them very long ? Is it possible that magnetic fields guide the spiral arms of spiral galaxies in a similar fashion ?
They are a consequence of the rotating black hole at the center of the galaxy, and of its accretion disc. It is not possible for such fields to have any effect on spiral structure or any other major structural aspects of a galaxy. The fields are too weak by orders of magnitude to affect star positions. The structure of nearly all a galaxy's mass is determined by gravity, and nothing else.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by drollere » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:31 pm

i recommend the photos posted on a page linked from a page linked in the photo caption ... details of the "tentacles":

http://www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk/papers/ngc1275/

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Beyond » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:48 pm

Good link to lots more information!! However, the first comparison of Hubble to ground based photos does not seem to be comparing the same view.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by dougettinger » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:01 pm

drollere wrote:i recommend the photos posted on a page linked from a page linked in the photo caption ... details of the "tentacles":

http://www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk/papers/ngc1275/
Thanks for submitting these spectacular images. I am detecting that the magnetic fields may be caused by the very hot plasmas that are associated with the filaments ? Or do you think the magnetic fields are being eratically spilled outward from the huge black hole ? If the black hole is the cause then there are very powerful magnetic fields reaching outward at great distances.

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by BMAONE23 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:07 pm

When I look at this image, It appears to me that the Reddish tentacles are traversing along the back side of the galaxy and that the purple-blue tentacles are wrapping around the front. Could they be caused by interaction between magnetic fields and the dark matter halo?

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Beyond » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:28 pm

Question - - - - If there is enough "force" to break off "chunks" of magnatism and spew them and filiments out of the black hole -- what keeps the expelled magnatism attached to the filiments instead of just becoming a "magnetic lump"?
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Ann » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:54 pm

BMAONE23 said:
When I look at this image, It appears to me that the Reddish tentacles are traversing along the back side of the galaxy and that the purple-blue tentacles are wrapping around the front. Could they be caused by interaction between magnetic fields and the dark matter halo?
I'll offer no opinion on the dark matter halo, but the red tentacles are filaments of ionized hydrogen gas, and the blue filaments are long chains of clusters of hot stars. The purplish knots are star forming knots in the densest dust lanes of what remains of the spiral galaxy.

Clearly the red gas filaments and blue chains of star clusters are differently distributed, except at some places, where the red gas seems to be directly associated with the blue star clusters. In other places the red gas seems to be completely disconnected from any star clusters or star formation regions. Personally, I would guess that there may have been a number of supernovae in the central parts of NGC 1275 which may have expelled ionized gas, which then lined up along magnetic lines.

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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:22 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:When I look at this image, It appears to me that the Reddish tentacles are traversing along the back side of the galaxy and that the purple-blue tentacles are wrapping around the front. Could they be caused by interaction between magnetic fields and the dark matter halo?
No. Dark matter doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force. That's what makes it dark. Gravitation is the only fundamental force that appears to interact with dark matter.
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Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Post by jjohnson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:02 pm

Regarding the filamentary tentacles of "hot gas" - which NASA explains is a common term for ionized gas, which is matter in the plasma state, whether weakly or wholly ionized. We are looking at a fairly energetic plasma-filled cosmic space. The world's largest professional organization is the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE). Their section on Nuclear and Plasma Physics states that 99% or more of the observable universe is in a plasma state. Cool, condensed matter planets with atmospheres like where we live are an exception; stars, molecular clouds, stellar 'winds', stellar and galactic 'jets', and galactic and interstellar galactic filaments are the norm for plasma conditions. Plasma conditions and large birkeland electric currents exist all around Earth from the ionosphere to the magnetosphere, including the Van Allen belts, and the Earth's polar auroras.

In Cosmic Plasma, [D. Reidel Publishing Co. of the Kluwer Group, Dordrecht, The Netherlands, 1981; ISBN 90-277-1151-8, page 22] Hannes Alfvén (Nobel Laureate, 1970, in Physics for his development of magnetoelectrohydrodynamics (MHD), wrote:
...in cosmic plasmas the perhaps most important constriction mechanism is the electromagnetic attraction between parallel currents. A manifestation of this effect is the pinch effect, which was studied by Bennett long ago (1934), and has received much attention in connection with thermonuclear research... phenomena of this general type also exist on a cosmic scale, and lead to a bunching of currents and magnetic fields to filaments or 'magnetic ropes'. This bunching is usually accompanied by an accumulation of matter, and it may explain the observational fact that cosmic matter exhibits an abundance of filamentary structures (II.41)... the pinch effect has been very thoroughly studied in the laboratory. Indeed, the magnetic mirror technique used for thermonuclear plasma confinement is based on the pinch effect. In cosmic physics, however, it is very often forgotten. For example, the formation and evolution of interstellar clouds is normally treated by neglecting this effect, in spite of the fact that it must necessarily be of decisive importance (IV.8 and V.4). This has led to the regrettable result that this field and quite a few other fields of astrophysics have run into dead ends.
As we see repeatedly in APODs, filamentary structures are constantly being imaged: on and above the Sun, in the aurorae on Earth, Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune, in the ionosphere of Venus, in the Veil Nebula, in the collimated 'jets' from active galaxies which decelerate into twisted, filamentary plumes light years long (NRAO VLA images; DRAGN images from Jodrell Bank, and in the H1 images of filamentary gas and dust lanes ("dusty plasma") between and among galaxies and galaxy clusters. Filamentary structures are not and can not be formed under gravity-only forces; they are a natural and particularly common outgrowth of electromagnetic forces operating in cosmic plasmas. Hubble's legacy, Spitzer's infrared observations, SOHO, Hinode, SDO, TRACE, The Swedish Institute for Solar Physics and many others in helioastronomy, Chandra's X-ray visions, and the NRAO VLA and other radio astronomy observatories' radio images present gorgeous but silent testimony to this fact.

A static magnetic field can be generated by either a constant current (an electric current; i.e., a flow of moving charged particles, in this case whose flux density does not vary with time) or a permanent magnet [such as a bar magnet]... Time variable magnetic fields are created by electric fields, E, generated by time varying current flow I. (Reference: Schaum's Outline Series, Electromagnetics, Second Edition, McGraw-Hill, 1993, ISBN 0-07-021234-1; Chapter 9, Ampere's Law and the Magnetic Field, 9.1 and Chapter 13, Maxwell's Equations and Boundary Equations, 13.5, Maxwell's Equations.)

Magnetic fields in galaxies and the Sun can be detected by a number of methods, including optical polarization; Zeeman splitting of radio lines (caused when emitting or radiating atoms enter a magnetic field - observed by examining emission lines on a spectrograph); Faraday rotation of polarized radio emission, and strength of synchrotron emission. (Reference: Physics of the Plasma Universe, Anthony Peratt, Springer-Verlag, 1992, ISBN 0-387-97575-6; Chapter 3. Biot-Savart Law in Cosmic Plasma, pp.119-122). Solar astronomers and radio astronomers routinely use one method or another to observe the magnetic fields on our star and in our and other nearby galaxies. They are familiar with the invariable linkage between observed magnetic fields and the electrical currents which invariably cause them. (There are not a lot of little bar magnets floating around in space creating only static magnetic fields.) See also publications by radio astronomer Bryan Gaensler, University of Sydney, at http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~bmg/

So there is the picture when you combine gravity (G) forces with the well-known force of electromagnetism (EM). Both are infinite in influence, unlike the Strong and the Weak forces, which operate inside the nucleus of atoms. Both G and EM decrease in strength with increasing distance, but gravity falls off with the inverse of the square of the distance (1/r^2), while the force of a long current-carrying conductor falls off more slowly, as the inverse of the distance (1/r).

Gravity affects any particle with mass, whether charged or not, and it operates only as an attractive force to "clump stuff together". The force exerted on a charged particle by an electromagnetic field depends on the charge of the particle - like-charged particles repel while unlike-charges attract. This differential action in electromagnetism can create rotation, and filamentation, and extremely complex, interdependent, varying forces which govern the flows of currents and the morphology of plasma structures at all scales. MHD, as Alfvén warned in his Nobel Lecture, is not generally appropriate to modeling the electromagnetic behaviours found in cosmic plasmas!

Gravity is intrinsically a weaker force than the electromagnetic force: 10^39 times weaker than electromagnetism according to Wikipedia. There are places where gravity can be stronger than the electromagnetic forces acting on a body of particles in space; there are places where gravity and electromagnetic forces may exert approximately equal forces. However, in most of the reaches of space, the electromagnet forces acting upon a charged plasma (or "hot gas", or "winds" or "jets" or "clouds"...) will control the observable effects of the phenomenon being observed. Plasma material on the sun is ejected by the megaton out into the solar corona against the entire Sun's gravity pull, and it continues radially outward, still accelerating with distance, out past Jupiter toward the outer planets. That is not gravity at work!

Respectfully submitted to this discussion.

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