APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

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APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by APOD Robot » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:06 am

Image Stardust and Betelgeuse

Explanation: An expansive nebula of dust is seen to surround red supergiant star Betegeuse in this remarkable high resolution composite, an infrared VLT image from the European Southern Observatory. Betelgeuse itself is outlined by the small, central red circle. If found in our own solar system its diameter would almost encompass the orbit of Jupiter. But the larger envelope of circumstellar dust extends some 60 billion kilometers into space, equivalent to about 400 times the Earth-Sun distance. The dust is likely formed as the swollen atmosphere of the supergiant sheds material into space, a final phase in the evolution of a massive star. Mixing with the interstellar medium, the dust could ultimately form rocky terrestrial planets like Earth. The central bright portion of the outer image has been masked to reveal fainter extended structures. The field of view is 5.63 arcseconds across.

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by neufer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:18 am

APOD Robot wrote:Image Stardust and Betelgeuse
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090805.html
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100106.html
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by bystander » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:26 am

Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Beyond » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:56 am

bystander wrote:owlice: You know, you don't have to do this.
bystander: Yeah, I could get a real job.
owlice: [chuckles] What would you do.
bystander: I wanna be a greeter at Wal-Mart
I hope the picture on the Wal-Mart ID badge looks somewhat better than your avatar does right now,or you'll scare away the customers. :mrgreen:
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by biddie67 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:02 pm

Whoa!! The pictures of Betegeuse just keep getting better and better. It's one of the few stars that I can spot without my glasses.


P.S. you go for it, bystander!!!

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by orin stepanek » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:06 pm

Betelgeuse; youv'e been great! Soon you will rest in peace. 8-)
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Boomer12k » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:54 pm

Maybe this pushing of dust and material explains the "dust lane" in NGC 3132: The Eight Burst Nebula picture of June 26, 2011, just a couple of days ago.
It said it was a mystery of how they formed. MAYBE THIS IS HOW THEY FORMED!!!!!!

"Neither the unusual shape of the surrounding cooler shell nor the structure and placements of the cool filamentary dust lanes running across NGC 3132 are well understood."

Maybe a Red Giant, in furiously pushing out stellar matter and system matter (from gravel to asteroids), from its solar winds, bunches up that material out beyond its system (so of like the Ort cloud). 400 AU, is pretty good. Then when the star "sheds" its gases and they go out they expand into that dust as well. So then you have a mixture, and you get lanes and spots etc...totally random depending on placement and motion, of course.

Thanks to Betelgeuse giving up some of its secrets....

Boomer. :----====== <-that is a smiley face looking through a telescope.

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Ann » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:55 pm

I think you are right, Boomer12k. The progenitor star of NGC 3132 was certainly no Betelgeuse, but clearly that star shed mass before it died too, just like Betelgeuse.

What I wonder about is whether we can be absolutely sure that Betelgeuse will ever really go supernova. How well do astronomers understand the progenitor stars of these cosmic super-explosions? Not well at all, is what I think. To my knowledge, the only progenitor star that astronomers know of is Sanduleak 22 or whatever it was called (I don't have the energy to google it right now) which blew its top to become Supernova 1987A. But a sample of one is not too impressive. Besides, I once read that the photosphere of a massive evolved star has no idea of what its own core is doing - and neither do we.

So I can't help wondering if there isn't a tiny chance that Betelgeuse will in fact not go supernova, but will become a massive white dwarf instead. Well, probably not. But if it does become a white dwarf, who knows what an intricate planetary nebula it could form?

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by neufer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:14 pm

Ann wrote:
What I wonder about is whether we can be absolutely sure that Betelgeuse will ever really go supernova. How well do astronomers understand the progenitor stars of these cosmic super-explosions? Not well at all, is what I think. To my knowledge, the only progenitor star that astronomers know of is Sanduleak 22 or whatever it was called (I don't have the energy to google it right now) which blew its top to become Supernova 1987A. But a sample of one is not too impressive. Besides, I once read that the photosphere of a massive evolved star has no idea of what is happening in the star's center - and neither do we.

So I can't help wondering if there isn't a tiny chance that Betelgeuse will in fact not go supernova, but will become a massive white dwarf instead. Well, probably not. But if it does become a white dwarf, who knows what an intricate planetary nebula it could form?
Betelgeuse will have to shed a lot more mass than it is currently doing if it is to avoid going supernova.

In any event, blue Sanduleak -69° 202a is probably not a good representation for flaming red Betelgeuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1987A wrote:
<<SN 1987A was a supernova in the outskirts of the Tarantula Nebula in the Large Magellanic Cloud, a nearby dwarf galaxy. It was the closest observed supernova since SN 1604, which occurred in the Milky Way itself. The light from the supernova reached Earth on February 23, 1987.

Soon after the event was recorded, the progenitor star was identified as Sanduleak -69° 202a, a blue supergiant. This was an unexpected identification, because at the time a blue supergiant was not considered a possibility for a supernova event in existing models of high mass stellar evolution. Many models of the progenitor have attributed the color to its chemical composition, particularly the low levels of heavy elements, among other factors. There has been some speculation that the star may have merged with a companion star prior to the supernova. It is of note that the supernova of the blue giant Sanduleak -69° 202a was about one-tenth as luminous as the average observed type-II supernova, which is associated with the denser makeup of the star. Since blue supergiant supernovae are not as bright as those generated by red supergiants, we would not expect to see as many of them, and so they might not be as rare or unusual as previously thought.

Sanduleak -69° 202a was classified as a class of blue supergiants known as luminous blue variables (LBVs) which can produce Type II supernovae. LBVs are known to eject large amounts of mass in sporadic, violent outbursts. Four other LBVs (Eta Carinae included) might join it in a few million years.>>
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:20 pm

Ann wrote:What I wonder about is whether we can be absolutely sure that Betelgeuse will ever really go supernova.
There is not much, if anything, we can be absolutely sure of. From the standpoint of science-based predictions, however, the point here is that we have absolutely no reason at all to think it won't go supernova.
How well do astronomers understand the progenitor stars of these cosmic super-explosions?
Actually, the underlying theory relating mass to evolution is very well developed. We don't need to know all the details of how a supernova occurs to know the conditions under which it will occur.
Besides, I once read that the photosphere of a massive evolved star has no idea of what its own core is doing - and neither do we.
Again, we do have a pretty good idea of what is happening in the core of a massive star (or of any star that we know the mass of).
Chris

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by neufer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Ann wrote:
How well do astronomers understand the progenitor stars of these cosmic super-explosions?
Actually, the underlying theory relating mass to evolution is very well developed.
We don't need to know all the details of how a supernova occurs
to know the conditions under which it will occur.
If Carbon/Nitrogen/Oxygen rich stars like Betelgeuse DON'T supernova
then it is back to square one with that OTHER evolution thingy:

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:47 pm

neufer wrote:If Carbon/Nitrogen/Oxygen rich stars like Betelgeuse DON'T supernova
then it is back to square one with that OTHER evolution thingy...
I'd go with this one,
fsm_creation.jpg
but your point is taken.
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Ann » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:17 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Again, we do have a pretty good idea of what is happening in the core of a massive star (or of any star that we know the mass of).
I'm not questioning the claim that astronomers have their supernova theories well worked out. I don't question the prediction that really massive stars build up "onion cores" that fuse heavier and heavier elements. And I don't question the claim that iron is an end product, and that a star that has built up an iron core must go supernova.

What I question is what astronomers know about the current state of the core of Betelgeuse. Do they know the current state of alpha Orionis well enough to say that it is destined to go supernova?

Perhaps you say, Chris, that it doesn't matter what the current state of Betelgeuse is, as long as we know that it is inexorably on its way to building up an iron core and then blowing itself to smithereens. And I'm not arguing - not too much, anyway. :wink:

Ann

P.S. Hey, I like your painting, Chris. Not that Michelangelo's original isn't nice, too.
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Peter G. Burke » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:05 pm

When magnifing the new view of Betelgeuse, then using a magnifying glass, there are 8 black dots regularly spaced in ring around the star.

Are those poart of the original sight mechanism, or some type of aberration in the view?

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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:04 pm

Peter G. Burke wrote:When magnifing the new view of Betelgeuse, then using a magnifying glass, there are 8 black dots regularly spaced in ring around the star. Are those poart of the original sight mechanism, or some type of aberration in the view?
The ring is just a circle drawn on the image with Photoshop or the like to indicate the approximate size of Betelguese. Any structure you see in it is an artifact of how the ring was rendered and antialiased, and has nothing to do with the underlying image at all.
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Alm's for oblivion?

Post by neufer » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:If Carbon/Nitrogen/Oxygen rich stars like Betelgeuse DON'T supernova
then it is back to square one with that OTHER evolution thingy...
I'd go with this one, but your point is taken.

[list]______ Troilus and Cressida Act 3, Scene 3

ULYSSES: Time hath, my lord, a wallet at his back,
___ Wherein he puts
alms for oblivion,
___ A great-sized monster of ingratitudes:
___ Those scraps are good deeds past; which are devour'd
___ As fast as they are made,


[list]Alm's for oblivion?[/list][/color][/list]
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/07/15/138162835/austrian-pastafarian-picture-was-a-win-for-freedom-from-religion wrote:
Austrian 'Pastafarian': License Photo Was A Win For Freedom From Religion
by Eyder Peralta July 15, 2011

<<Nico Alm never actually thought he'd get the license in the mail. Three years earlier, amid a flurry of new European Union regulations, Alm decided he would take his driver's license picture with a pasta strainer on his head. Niko Alm's original pictures & driver's license:
ImageImage

As we reported Wednesday, Alm was testing a caveat in those new regulations that said headgear could only be worn for religious reasons. Alm argued that he belonged to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his religion required him to wear the spaghetti strainer on his head. And three years later, it arrived at his home: His license sporting a very serious picture of Alm with a plastic pasta strainer sitting sideways on his head. We talked to Alm on the phone from Austria. All of this, he said, happened when he "spotted a privilege that I didn't agree with."

The result is, of course, humorous and it's gotten worldwide attention and on our post, at least, started a series of hilarious pasta puns ("And people who discriminate against Pastafarians will be labelled antipasti?"). Perhaps it struck a chord because it pokes fun at government bureaucracy, perhaps because one man was able to pull a fast one on a set of regulations that overhauled European Union licenses, making them more like credit cards and much more serious, including a regulation that did not allow people to smile in their official pictures.

But, Alm notes, it also strikes at the tension between church and state: "The Republic of Austria is still very closely attached, is trying to serve religion and churches without any apparent need," Alm said. "And that's just another thing I pointed out... that something is going wrong here that there is a part of the population that can exert certain special rights that people like me, that atheist people or non-believers cannot have."

Alm says he is an atheist. He was baptized Roman Catholic but he was never a believer. He runs an advertising firm and this stunt could be portrayed as a powerful victory in the fight for religious freedom. In the United States, for example, the American Civil Liberties Union has used the First Amendment's Free Exercise Clause to argue in different states that Muslim women should be allowed to wear a hijab in their license photos.

But Alm says his aim — as an advocate "for the clean separation of church and state" — was to win one for freedom from religion. "There shouldn't be any special rights for anybody because of their religious belief or non-belief," he said. He also said, his protest isn't aimed at religions. He said he is no way poking fun at people who take their religion seriously: "I am ridiculing the authorities," he said. "If anybody is offended there is nothing I can do, but I am offended too, if logic and reason is offended."

Alm said his next step is to get the Austrian arm of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster officially recognized by the government. And if you're wondering, Alm does really likes pasta. His favorite is called pici, a kind of thick spaghetti, which he hasn't had outside of Italy.>>
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Re: APOD: Stardust and Betelgeuse (2011 Jun 28)

Post by Beyond » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:28 pm

The Flying Spaghetti Monster So that's what that thing is. I remember hearing that phrase a few times last century, but had never seen one, until this thread. Just goes to show--you never know where you'll discover something neu,fer goodness sakes, or otherwise. :facepalm:
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