Voynich manuscript discussion: 2005 January 22

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.

The Voynich Code

Post by Osyra » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:47 pm

I agree with the ***** guy. I have a feeling it might be a Germanic or Latin based language we know of, but it was encoded for whatever reason. After all, encoding your own language isnt that hard, just replace the letters with symbols of your own design. These ones look sort of upside down. As for why it was encoded, either from nosey peasents and nobles or from fear of religeous persecusions. But then again, it could be a hoax or the guy who wrote it was a few pennies short of a dollar.

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Post by hotrod » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:24 pm

Having just looked at some of the images from the book, I decided to post my response to what they might concern- without biasing my response with responses by other people. Sorry if someone else already had the same.

The ''Archeometre'' style drawing indicates a female face as the center of attention. There are 12 segments radiating out from her, with two facets on each. One facet is light, and the other is dark. Between each segment is a red dividing area. My reaction is that the segments represent months, and the facets indicate increasing and decreasing periods of fertility in the female during the month, with a spike at mid-point. The red divisions between segments indicates menstrual flow. The surrounding depictions of ''suns'', of which there are two in nine of the months and one in three of the months may be related to the pregnancy cycle. The remaining ''words'' may relate to astrological indications of seasonal relationships of fertility, or some such related information (??)- much as annual planting cycles for farmers are described.

The naked women in the ''Bathers'', called nymphs elsewhere, all seem to be pregnant. How this might relate I do not know.

The ''plant'' drawings may be depicted to indicate the growth stages of the plant from seed to mature fruit.

So, is the book concerned with fertility, as related to astrological or other events? Wish I knew....

Now, I will read what others perceive.
Mike H.


Voynich manuscript

Post by m » Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:02 pm

It may be wise to check to see if this is not the manuscript of Berosus (Babalonian) who wrote the history of the world and whose works were thought to be lost at Alexandria.



Poor Saps

Post by family_guy » Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:18 pm

I feal sorry for the poor saps who've spent countless hours trying to decipher the mysterys of jibberish.

I say, forget Voynich.
Get married, have children, and spend your hours trying to decipher the jibberish of your children.
It's much more rewarding!


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Post by Helen » Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:53 pm

Note to moderator: thanks for removing the post of the spamming "Guest" on page 13 after somebody else complained. For those who didn't see it, it was a lengthy announcement by the archdiocese of Yucatan, of all places, followed by a lengthy advertisement for a Bible-selling outfit in Mexico.

Dear spamming "Guest": please note that the manuscript in question dates from BEFORE anyone in Europe arrived in Central America. Mayas, Azteks, other locals did NOT write it. Can't you find another board or start a thread on topics of interest to YOU? Thanks.


Post by Guest » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:59 pm

You don't think it's elfish do you?


Post by Frodo » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Anonymous wrote:You don't think it's elfish do you?
I said that way back in page 9.

Has anybody seen Gandalf of late? He may be able to help


voynich ms

Post by nrmiller@zianet.com » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:39 pm

looks like a needlework pattern to me. Which tells you more about me than it does the picture.


Re: Poor Saps

Post by Guest » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:46 pm

family_guy wrote:I feal sorry for the poor saps who've spent countless hours trying to decipher the mysterys of jibberish.

I say, forget Voynich.
Get married, have children, and spend your hours trying to decipher the jibberish of your children.
It's much more rewarding!


I don't regret one minute of the research I've done. It has led me on quite an educational path through history and ties in with my interersts in science, calligraphy, art, and computers.



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Post by theAtarian » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:43 am

First post here. I usually lurk, but I wanted to ask something about the subject. While I'm definently not an expert on this, and I have yet to read through all the explanations and theories about it, has anyone pointed out that the drawing seems to slighty resemble an Egyptian Hypocephalus? I know the language is nothing close to egyptian, but the drawings' design looks like a very basic hypocephalus and I wonder if anyone has researched whether there may be some connection there? I know a few hypocephalus also have vague references to astronomy so perhaps this was originally inspired by a hypocephalus drawing? Just another theory....


Voynich Manuscript

Post by grant@mo-net.com » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:07 am

It is 12 areas of space in a 24 hour period. I would contact Zacharia Sitchen. He can tell you exactly what it is saying.

The Aussie Moggie

Voynich manuscript

Post by The Aussie Moggie » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:34 am

I have just seen further works in the Voynich manuscript and As we say 'down under'... "I hate to throw a spanner in the works", but these pictures look like the formula for opium production and the affects of opium... (Opium pipes (2nd diagram) , poppy plants (3rd diagram) etc and the naked women would represent the side effects of drug induced stupor)... The speech(written word) would also be the language of an addicted alchemist, who hid his formula in a code...

Could you imagine having the formula for opium production in early Europe you would border on having a death sentence hanging over your head and on the other side you could sit on the cusp of being a powerful and wealthy man, so all would need to be concealed.....

Opium smoking apparently didn't begin until after the discovery of America which is where pipe smoking originated..
Thus putting this document in the right time period....

I am warming also to the thought that the diagram may not be the sun but the moon... (For more than 2000 years man has been drawing a face on the moon, not on the sun)... This map or plan could represent a pattern for growing. And as good friend of mine just said, you can see more constellations at night

I think this the work of a drugged mad man.... but I suppose the world will never know....

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Post by makc » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:20 am

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
don't do that please.



Post by uncompromised.org » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:43 am

Anonymous wrote:Hello APOD,

well, you asked for it and so, if you would like, please visit my website that contains my insight into the posible solution of the Voynich manuscrpit:


My work has allready been published in a shorter form in "Planeta", Serbian Popular Science monthly magazine, on October 28th 2004, page 42.

Please note that there are many attempts to dechiperement of this manuscript and mine is perhaps the latest and the newest in a series of attempts.

Sincerely yours,
Adrian Nedelkovic,
Beograd (Belgrade) Serbia
I really hate the popups from your site. Too bad, too, 'cause now I won't know if you have any useful input on this matter.

M. George

Voynich manuscript

Post by M. George » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:40 am

1. Was there someone Rudolph II would have wanted to get even with by leaving him stumped? Eg. (a) Someone who was always showing off his scholarship (b) A clergyman in the court who presumed to conduct inquiries on the Emperor himself. Europe was riddled with both religious censorship and the resulting obscurantists. If I were Emperor, I would contract out such a project -- always assuming I could not or would not take the quick and dirty way. Who would would be my "contactor" in this project? A prisoner in long-term solitary confinement, a la Prisoner of Zenda? I would make him an offer he could not refuse. Along the way, he gets too creative for his own good (literally) to implement my wandering vision or some detail of genius (such as variation of script); so I find a replacement.

2. Geon's idea of opium cultivation seems to fit the pictures, but why go to such great length?

3. It was good of Ealdric to out the big irrelevant posts that should go. I would even cut out (a) links posted without comment (b) duplication by the same person (c) quotes of other posters without one's own comment. In the last category is the alien spammer who communicates with the rest of us almost entirely in emoticons. If posts got arranged by relevance to other posts automatically, these would "fall by the wayside". Also, how about the use of calligraphy to make post more concise and thoughtful?

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Re: is there a moderator in the house ?

Post by nitewalker » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:04 pm

[quote="nitewalker"][quote="ealdric"]Is anyone moderating this discussion ? The long Yucatan history / Bible ad message on pg 13 seems like it should be removed. I see no relavance.

Helen points out ealdric was complaining about a spammer, I make amends to him for misunderstanding his intent, but, in view of recent policy about ''don't offend any other person with your belief'', I have gotten pretty defensive about mine, and more outspoken, so guess the new politicaly correct thing, is really stirring up resentment. again ealdric, sorry to misunderstand, but, the other was gone already.

Just me


Post by Just me » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:53 pm

Here are my thoughts:

1. From the sun each of the stars in the limbs are different, i.e., maybe there is a relationship between the number of stars and the corresponding letters or words in the outer rim.

2. The three outer rims may correspond to the three single stars just beneath the outer rims. The one single star appears to have an arrow pointing clockwise. So maybe you start reading clockwise, then counterclockwise, etc.

3. Perhaps the code is contained three dimensionally. Looking at the starbursts there are twelve spokes. If you were to fold the paper so you could look at all the stars one way and the black sides the other way, it may give the secret of the code.

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Re: word-length distributions

Post by Helen » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:44 pm

wombat wrote:Helen:
Re your letter distribution statistics. Think of a modern star chart. It might have full contellation names, in which case it would conform with "typical" distributions. But maybe it only has the 3-letter abbreviations, so your letter counts would look very strange indeed. You could apply similar types of arguments to plant charts; in fact to almost any kind of "technical" charts. The "words" on them are not typical, thus they won't generate typical word-length counts.

Finally, if it is in a code (as distinct from an encryption or a cipher, for those who know the difference; aned it seems you do), then it stands to reason that the coded words would be of a limited range of word lengths.
Wombat - yes, point taken. As another poster remarked earlier "hedge magic" incantations would account for word length distribution also. Sorry didn't acknowledge before, your post was on p. 13 containing the - now deleted - spam and I missed it.

Quickly summarizing links posted earlier so new posters don't keep repeating them:
1. Reproduction of original MS BOOK from Yale library.
2. SciAm and Wired magazines articles.
3. Several links to research on MS going back decades plus MS correspondence.
4. Links to medieval history / literature sites.

I thought btw that an ink analysis had been done already but I see no reference to it or to a carbon-dating analysis of the composition of either the vellum or the watercolors. Does anyone have info on this - spectrographic analysis would require minute quantities of these items - or on any description of the several pages now missing from the MS?



Post by DeeBerg13 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:54 pm

Even if it is a hoax, it is still a mystery, isn't it? :wink:

Bob Peterson
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Post by Bob Peterson » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:13 pm

Apparently, there has'nt been carbon-dating or ink analysis on this MS. Correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps, someone at Yale can cast some light on this. Is it too expensive? Low on the Priority List? In any event, the accuracy and limitations of these analytical tools should, obviously, be explored on this thread. PS- The coloring on the various illustrations is very sloppy, indeed. I wonder who did that amateur work and when the coloring was applied?
Last edited by Bob Peterson on Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Manuscript code broken

Post by jaiga1979 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:58 pm

finally, managed to start breaking the code...will let all know in three days..my email id is jaigan1979@gmail.com



Re: Voynich manuscript

Post by Guest » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:14 pm

I'm surprised at all the suggestions being made for explanations that have already been tested. Some people should look into a matter a bit more before spouting off at the "fingers".



Post by cassini » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:21 pm


Seems to me that given there are 12 segments that it relates to a calander?

Is it really that simple



Post by lewishb » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:35 pm

The star with the face in the center of it reminds me of a cipher wheel or rotor used to encript messages. the stars, constellations (in astrology?)likely had a numerical value which was used to encript a message by produceing a sort of "one time tape".... All secret organizations have secret knowledge only for initiates.....


in response to nightskylive invitation

Post by anniekapn » Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:32 pm

The pictorial seems to me an attempt to illustrate the phenomena of a bright star beyond a star which is visible. The effect creates a much larger halo of stellar light, and the star beyond is often overlooked. I do not believe the language is much to focus on. It seems swirly and pretty, prehaps a tribute to "love" or "sustanence". The language may just have been a dictionary to transfer meaning from one realm of living, to another, in daily life. Such as a fig being an angel, in the base of powerful; or, hair being worms to indicate "wiggle, wiggle, wiggle".