APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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Cousin Ricky
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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by Cousin Ricky » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:30 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:13 pm The most detailed periodic table I've yet found is the one from https://www.vertex42.com/ExcelTemplates ... ments.html. There are both PDF and Excel format versions. Here's the color PDF - https://www.vertex42.com/Files/pdfs/2/p ... _color.pdf.
Note that as of 2012, 114-ununquadium has been given a permanent name: flerovium

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by johnnydeep » Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:53 pm

Cousin Ricky wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:30 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:13 pm The most detailed periodic table I've yet found is the one from https://www.vertex42.com/ExcelTemplates ... ments.html. There are both PDF and Excel format versions. Here's the color PDF - https://www.vertex42.com/Files/pdfs/2/p ... _color.pdf.
Note that as of 2012, 114-ununquadium has been given a permanent name: flerovium
Ha - only you would have noticed that! :ssmile: Such are the pitfalls of a static jpeg compared to a dynamic site like Ptable (which does have that update). <sigh> Still, the new name is over 10 years old, so I would have hoped the Vertex42 site would have been updated by now. Oh well.
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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by Ann » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:57 am

No Starship Asterisk* thread about the Periodic Table can be complete without a song. (And if you pay attention to the lyrics while reading the subtitles, you can learn a spot of Danish, too.)

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

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javachip3

Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by javachip3 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:47 am

"The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang. There are no other appreciable sources of hydrogen in the universe."

Really? Many fusion and fission reactions produce free neutrons. Neutron star mergers, supernovas, relativistic jets from black holes, and other cataclysmic events also produce free neutrons. Free neutrons decay with a half life of 10 minutes into a proton, an electron, and an electron antineutrino. A proton is a new hydrogen nucleus. After 13.7 billion years, might not this account for some percent of all existing hydrogen?

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:42 pm

javachip3 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:47 am "The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang. There are no other appreciable sources of hydrogen in the universe."

Really? Many fusion and fission reactions produce free neutrons. Neutron star mergers, supernovas, relativistic jets from black holes, and other cataclysmic events also produce free neutrons. Free neutrons decay with a half life of 10 minutes into a proton, an electron, and an electron antineutrino. A proton is a new hydrogen nucleus. After 13.7 billion years, might not this account for some percent of all existing hydrogen?
Well, given that most estimates suggest that only a few percent at most of the Universe's hydrogen has ever been in a star, and most of the hydrogen in stars is still there, as hydrogen, I think that it is reasonable to say other sources of the element aren't "appreciable", representing only a very, very tiny fraction of all hydrogen.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by johnnydeep » Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:49 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:42 pm
javachip3 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:47 am "The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang. There are no other appreciable sources of hydrogen in the universe."

Really? Many fusion and fission reactions produce free neutrons. Neutron star mergers, supernovas, relativistic jets from black holes, and other cataclysmic events also produce free neutrons. Free neutrons decay with a half life of 10 minutes into a proton, an electron, and an electron antineutrino. A proton is a new hydrogen nucleus. After 13.7 billion years, might not this account for some percent of all existing hydrogen?
Well, given that most estimates suggest that only a few percent at most of the Universe's hydrogen has ever been in a star, and most of the hydrogen in stars is still there, as hydrogen, I think that it is reasonable to say other sources of the element aren't "appreciable", representing only a very, very tiny fraction of all hydrogen.
Huh. So, 95% or more of the hydrogen in the universe is just floating around as gas in interstellar and intergalactic space? If the following graphic is still accurate, it would imply that about 0.5% / 4% = 1/8 of the hydrogen in the universe is in stars, which would be about 12 percent.

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:57 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:49 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:42 pm
javachip3 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:47 am "The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang. There are no other appreciable sources of hydrogen in the universe."

Really? Many fusion and fission reactions produce free neutrons. Neutron star mergers, supernovas, relativistic jets from black holes, and other cataclysmic events also produce free neutrons. Free neutrons decay with a half life of 10 minutes into a proton, an electron, and an electron antineutrino. A proton is a new hydrogen nucleus. After 13.7 billion years, might not this account for some percent of all existing hydrogen?
Well, given that most estimates suggest that only a few percent at most of the Universe's hydrogen has ever been in a star, and most of the hydrogen in stars is still there, as hydrogen, I think that it is reasonable to say other sources of the element aren't "appreciable", representing only a very, very tiny fraction of all hydrogen.
Huh. So, 95% or more of the hydrogen in the universe is just floating around as gas in interstellar and intergalactic space? If the following graphic is still accurate, it would imply that about 0.5% / 4% = 1/8 of the hydrogen in the universe is in stars, which would be about 12 percent.
There is a lot of uncertainty in the numbers because there's a lot of uncertainty about how many stars there are. However, even allowing for something on the order of 10% of the hydrogen being in stars, we need to consider that most of the stars that have ever existed in the Universe still do, and are still in their hydrogen fusing phase, and have only fused a tiny fraction of that hydrogen. So compared with the amount of primordial hydrogen, that created as a fusion byproduct remains very tiny.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by johnnydeep » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:05 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:57 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:49 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:42 pm

Well, given that most estimates suggest that only a few percent at most of the Universe's hydrogen has ever been in a star, and most of the hydrogen in stars is still there, as hydrogen, I think that it is reasonable to say other sources of the element aren't "appreciable", representing only a very, very tiny fraction of all hydrogen.
Huh. So, 95% or more of the hydrogen in the universe is just floating around as gas in interstellar and intergalactic space? If the following graphic is still accurate, it would imply that about 0.5% / 4% = 1/8 of the hydrogen in the universe is in stars, which would be about 12 percent.
There is a lot of uncertainty in the numbers because there's a lot of uncertainty about how many stars there are. However, even allowing for something on the order of 10% of the hydrogen being in stars, we need to consider that most of the stars that have ever existed in the Universe still do, and are still in their hydrogen fusing phase, and have only fused a tiny fraction of that hydrogen. So compared with the amount of primordial hydrogen, that created as a fusion byproduct remains very tiny.
Thanks. Points taken!
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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by johnnydeep » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:37 pm

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by MarkBour » Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:53 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:37 pm Just thought I add this recent relevant comic from XKCD - https://xkcd.com/2723/

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/outdated_p ... ble_2x.png
Beautiful !
(I just saw it and was coming here to post it to this thread.) :P

I miss neufer, too.
Mark Goldfain

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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by MarkBour » Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:37 pm

Thanks for the periodic table reference, johnnydeep! I like it very much.

And one more note on the origins of the elements, which I saw in the news today. ("Where we get them in a different, not-very-scientific sense.)
Sweden has just reported the finding of a large deposit of some valuable rare earths. Perhaps Ann can start supplying us? They had not yet reported details on what all is in the deposit, but apparently good quantities of neodymium and praseodymium.
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/13/11491358 ... -in-sweden
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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:56 pm

MarkBour wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:37 pm Thanks for the periodic table reference, johnnydeep! I like it very much.

And one more note on the origins of the elements, which I saw in the news today. ("Where we get them in a different, not-very-scientific sense.)
Sweden has just reported the finding of a large deposit of some valuable rare earths. Perhaps Ann can start supplying us? They had not yet reported details on what all is in the deposit, but apparently good quantities of neodymium and praseodymium.
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/13/11491358 ... -in-sweden
I had heard that story as well. All the more reason to accept/approve Sweden's NATO membership request post haste!
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Re: APOD: Where Your Elements Came From (2023 Jan 08)

Post by MarkBour » Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:26 am

johnnydeep wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:56 pm I had heard that story as well. All the more reason to accept/approve Sweden's NATO membership request post haste!
Ha ha! Yes, maybe if they offered some Neodymium to Turkey.
Mark Goldfain