Comments and questions about the
APOD on the main view screen.
-
jagganath69
- Asternaut
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:32 am
Post
by jagganath69 » Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:08 am
What does the BROWN shade mean (Polonium et al) ?
-
Iksarfighter
- Ensign
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:13 pm
Post
by Iksarfighter » Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:13 am
Same question
-
Knight of Clear Skies
- Ensign
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:02 am
Post
by Knight of Clear Skies » Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:02 am
jagganath69 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:08 am
What does the BROWN shade mean (Polonium et al) ?
These are all elements with very short half-lives, so they barely exist in nature.
-
Uwe Dortmund
Post
by Uwe Dortmund » Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:11 pm
Thanks for the knowledge!
Well, how old is 'water' then?
Up to now i thought as old as the universe, which seems to be not quite accurate.
-
rwlott
- Ensign
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 7:05 pm
Post
by rwlott » Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:49 pm
Uwe Dortmund wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:11 pm
Well, how old is 'water' then?
Up to now i thought as old as the universe, which seems to be not quite accurate.
If Neufer was still with us, Chris would probably quip that water is about as old as Neufer, given that there were only five elements in the Periodic Table back when Art was in high school. Art would then correct him and say there were actually six elements back then and then conclude with some quote from Lord of the Rings that would leave us all scratching our heads. Art Neuendorffer, I sure do miss you.
Last edited by rwlott on Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Sa Ji Tario
Post
by Sa Ji Tario » Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:16 pm
jagganath69 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:08 am
What does the BROWN shade mean (Polonium et al) ?
Tc = Technetium meaning "artificial", created by humans in laboratory reactors, and the other browns
-
Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18618
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Post
by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:23 pm
rwlott wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:49 pm
Uwe Dortmund wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:11 pm
Well, how old is 'water' then?
Up to now i thought as old as the universe, which seems to be not quite accurate.
If Neufer was still with us, Chris would probably quip that water is about as old as Neufer, given that there were only five elements in the Periodic Table back when Art was in high school. Art would then correct him and say there were actually six elements back then and then conclude with some quote from Lord of the Rings that would leave us all scratching our heads. Art Neufendorf, I sure do miss you.
Four. Earth, air, fire, and water. And the quip would have been Shakespearean, along with the suggestion that Shakespeare didn't write it. But otherwise... yeah.
Hydrogen has been around since the beginning. Oxygen didn't come about until the first generation of stars. And water? Well, it need not be ancient at all.
-
Greyhound99
- Asternaut
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:29 pm
Post
by Greyhound99 » Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:37 pm
Knight of Clear Skies wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:02 am
jagganath69 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:08 am
What does the BROWN shade mean (Polonium et al) ?
These are all elements with very short half-lives, so they barely exist in nature.
That is undoubtedly true, but not an answer to "what does the brown shade mean". I am not a real physicist, but I think by elimination it must mean that the source of these elements is radioactive decay from heavier elements.
-
Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18618
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Post
by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:52 pm
Greyhound99 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:37 pm
Knight of Clear Skies wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:02 am
jagganath69 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:08 am
What does the BROWN shade mean (Polonium et al) ?
These are all elements with very short half-lives, so they barely exist in nature.
That is undoubtedly true, but not an answer to "what does the brown shade mean". I am not a real physicist, but I think by elimination it must mean that the source of these elements is radioactive decay from heavier elements.
If you look at the referenced source data, the elements shaded brown here (gray in the source) are labeled "Very radioactive isotopes; nothing left from stars". For whatever reason that label was left off the APOD version.
So yes, what this means is that these elements are either not found in nature at all, or are short-lived products of the radioactive decay of other elements.
-
Cousin Ricky
- Science Officer
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:08 pm
- Location: St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands (+18.3, -64.9)
Post
by Cousin Ricky » Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:30 pm
There is a
more up-to-date image at Wikimedia Commons. For brown, it says “Human synthesis/ no stable isotopes”; however, many of the brown elements in today’s APOD (polonium et al.) do occur in nature in stable quantities, due to radioactive decay chains. These are colored purple in the latest Wikimedia image.
-
Ann
- 4725 Å
- Posts: 13867
- Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am
Post
by Ann » Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:43 pm
Cousin Ricky wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:30 pm
There is a
more up-to-date image at Wikimedia Commons. For brown, it says “Human synthesis/ no stable isotopes”; however, many of the brown elements in today’s APOD (polonium et al.) do occur in nature in stable quantities, due to radioactive decay chains. These are colored purple in the latest Wikimedia image.
Thanks for the info, Cousin Ricky!
Ann
Color Commentator
-
Fred the Cat
- Theoretic Apothekitty
- Posts: 975
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:09 pm
- AKA: Ron
- Location: Eagle, Idaho
Post
by Fred the Cat » Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:20 pm
Cosmic ray spallation is listed as sources of beryllium and boron but
lithium is also
referred to in some
articles.
Thinking
big, could we someday make these in a lab? How could we
test if lithium could be
artificially produced to increase our supply
Or might that take three infinities(888)?
Freddy's Felicity "Only ascertain as a cat box survivor"
-
Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18618
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Post
by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:24 pm
We can make lithium in the lab. Just not economically in industrial quantities. This is true for most elements.
-
orin stepanek
- Plutopian
- Posts: 8200
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
- Location: Nebraska
Post
by orin stepanek » Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:33 pm
I want to see Happy people dancing on Mars & the Moon!
Orin
Smile today; tomorrow's another day!
-
GuiltyCol
- Asternaut
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:08 am
Post
by GuiltyCol » Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:29 pm
Didn't understand this in the commentary:
The gold in your jewelry was likely made from neutron stars during collisions
How did that gold get out of the neutron stars? I thought that merging neutron stars create either another bigger neutron star, or a black hole.
Or is some % of their combined mass ejected in the merger?
-
Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18618
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Post
by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:44 pm
GuiltyCol wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:29 pm
Didn't understand this in the commentary:
The gold in your jewelry was likely made from neutron stars during collisions
How did that gold get out of the neutron stars? I thought that merging neutron stars create either another bigger neutron star, or a black hole.
Or is some % of their combined mass ejected in the merger?
Indeed, a great deal of material can be released during the collision of a pair of neutron stars. And being neutron rich, and suddenly unconfined, that provides an ideal environment for the production of heavy elements via the r-process.
-
Uwe Dortmund
Post
by Uwe Dortmund » Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:41 pm
Didn't see that coming. Har har. Well, thank you again
Indeed it completely escaped me that water is not an element itself but a compound (just looked it up). Did it?
Whatever. Any non BS answer, please?
-
MarkBour
- Subtle Signal
- Posts: 1377
- Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:44 pm
- Location: Illinois, USA
Post
by MarkBour » Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:54 am
rwlott wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:49 pm
Uwe Dortmund wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:11 pm
Well, how old is 'water' then?
Up to now i thought as old as the universe, which seems to be not quite accurate.
If Neufer was still with us, Chris would probably quip that water is about as old as Neufer, given that there were only five elements in the Periodic Table back when Art was in high school. Art would then correct him and say there were actually six elements back then and then conclude with some quote from Lord of the Rings that would leave us all scratching our heads. Art Neuendorffer, I sure do miss you.
In one sense, water molecules on Earth are very young. If you consider that a water molecule is two hydrogen atoms bound to an oxygen atom, then one thing they do a lot when in a body of liquid water on Earth is to self-ionize at the rate of one out of 10^14 molecules at any one instant. Geissler et al estimated that this means that the average water molecule has broken up and reformed (with new "dance partners") every 10 hours.
http://geisslergroup.org/wp-content/upl ... 001-1.pdf
Mark Goldfain
-
zendae
- Ensign
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:46 pm
- Location: Harleysville, Pa
Post
by zendae » Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:09 am
-
Ann
- 4725 Å
- Posts: 13867
- Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am
Post
by Ann » Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:19 am
rwlott wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:49 pm
Uwe Dortmund wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:11 pm
Well, how old is 'water' then?
Up to now i thought as old as the universe, which seems to be not quite accurate.
If Neufer was still with us, Chris would probably quip that water is about as old as Neufer, given that there were only five elements in the Periodic Table back when Art was in high school. Art would then correct him and say there were actually six elements back then and then conclude with some quote from Lord of the Rings that would leave us all scratching our heads. Art Neuendorffer, I sure do miss you.
Thank you for reminding Starship Asterisk* about Neufer and giving him this fine tribute. I feel his absence too.
Ann
Color Commentator
-
GuiltyCol
- Asternaut
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:08 am
Post
by GuiltyCol » Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:04 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:44 pm
GuiltyCol wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:29 pm
Didn't understand this in the commentary:
The gold in your jewelry was likely made from neutron stars during collisions
How did that gold get out of the neutron stars? I thought that merging neutron stars create either another bigger neutron star, or a black hole.
Or is some % of their combined mass ejected in the merger?
Indeed, a great deal of material can be released during the collision of a pair of neutron stars. And being neutron rich, and suddenly unconfined, that provides an ideal environment for the production of heavy elements via the r-process.
Thanks Chris.
-
johnnydeep
- Commodore
- Posts: 3257
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:57 pm
Post
by johnnydeep » Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:13 pm
The most detailed periodic table I've yet found is the one from
https://www.vertex42.com/ExcelTemplates ... ments.html. There are both PDF and Excel format versions. Here's the color PDF -
https://www.vertex42.com/Files/pdfs/2/p ... _color.pdf. And here's a jpg (I reduced the quality a bit to get it under 1 MB in size):
best_periodic-table_color_From_vertex42.com-page-001 - 51% quality.jpg
EDIT: hmm, someone should take it upon themselves to integrate the info about the percentages of each element coming from different sources from this APOD with the Vertex42 periodic table. I
think it could be done, but getting BOTH color codings into each element square would be tricky.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
--
"To B̬̻̋̚o̞̮̚̚l̘̲̀᷾d̫͓᷅ͩḷ̯᷁ͮȳ͙᷊͠ Go......Beyond The F͇̤i̙̖e̤̟l̡͓d͈̹s̙͚ We Know."{ʲₒʰₙNYᵈₑᵉₚ}
-
bystander
- Apathetic Retiree
- Posts: 21593
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
- Location: Oklahoma
Post
by bystander » Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:47 pm
My go to periodic table online is at
Ptable. It has the information in your table by highlighting different properties on the left. It also has links to the wikipedia article on each element.
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk. — Garrison Keillor
-
johnnydeep
- Commodore
- Posts: 3257
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:57 pm
Post
by johnnydeep » Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:25 pm
bystander wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:47 pm
My go to periodic table online is at
Ptable. It has the information in your table by highlighting different properties on the left. It also has links to the wikipedia article on each element.
Thanks! Yes, the Ptable version is indeed wonderful and certainly more comprehensive! I had actually come across it before but had forgotten how truly awesome it was. Still, the one from Vertex42 is still, I think, the most impressive and detailed static image version of the periodic table. At least, of those I've seen so far.
--
"To B̬̻̋̚o̞̮̚̚l̘̲̀᷾d̫͓᷅ͩḷ̯᷁ͮȳ͙᷊͠ Go......Beyond The F͇̤i̙̖e̤̟l̡͓d͈̹s̙͚ We Know."{ʲₒʰₙNYᵈₑᵉₚ}