APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

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APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by APOD Robot » Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:05 am

Image Webb's Rho Ophiuchi

Explanation: A mere 390 light-years away, Sun-like stars and future planetary systems are forming in the Rho Ophiuchi molecular cloud complex, the closest star-forming region to our fair planet. The James Webb Space Telescope's NIRCam peered into the nearby natal chaos to capture this infrared image at an inspiring scale. The spectacular cosmic snapshot was released to celebrate the successful first year of Webb's exploration of the Universe. The frame spans less than a light-year across the Rho Ophiuchi region and contains about 50 young stars. Brighter stars clearly sport Webb's characteristic pattern of diffraction spikes. Huge jets of shocked molecular hydrogen blasting from newborn stars are red in the image, with the large, yellowish dusty cavity carved out by the energetic young star near its center. Near some stars in the stunning image are shadows cast by their protoplanetary disks.

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Ann » Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:50 am

Where in the picture is Rho Ophiuchi itself?

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by AVAO » Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:23 am

Ann wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:50 am Where in the picture is Rho Ophiuchi itself?

Ann
Hi Ann

For orientation. Description a bit confusing...
Original Image: h[url]ttps://www.eso.org/public/unitedkingdom/images/eso1123a/?lang
biggg:https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/530 ... 7d17_o.jpg

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Ann » Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:38 am

AVAO wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:23 am
Ann wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:50 am Where in the picture is Rho Ophiuchi itself?

Ann
Hi Ann

For orientation. Description a bit confusing...
Original Image: h[url]ttps://www.eso.org/public/unitedkingdom/images/eso1123a/?lang
biggg:https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/530 ... 7d17_o.jpg
Thanks a bunch, AVAO!

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by SpaceCadet » Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:46 am

The star in the upper left hand corner has a double star effect from the JW camera. Is this an anomaly or is it bc there are actually 2 stars really close to each other?

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Lasse H » Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:19 am

SpaceCadet wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:46 am The star in the upper left hand corner has a double star effect from the JW camera. Is this an anomaly or is it bc there are actually 2 stars really close to each other?
I just noticed that, too. It must be a double star, either an optical double or a visual binary. They seem to have about the same magnitude, judging from the spikes, and seem to be separated along a line from 10 to 4 on a clock face.

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by AVAO » Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:22 am

SpaceCadet wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:46 am The star in the upper left hand corner has a double star effect from the JW camera. Is this an anomaly or is it bc there are actually 2 stars really close to each other?
Two stars :roll: :roll:
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:48 pm

SpaceCadet wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:46 am The star in the upper left hand corner has a double star effect from the JW camera. Is this an anomaly or is it bc there are actually 2 stars really close to each other?
I see this regularly with my own images (which have just typical 4-spike diffraction). Close doubles are often not apparent at their core, where all the light is together in a big blob, but are made obvious by their not quite overlapping diffraction spikes.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:31 pm

One amazing year of JWST images and research in in the history books. May we have 20+ more! There was a great PBS Newshour segment about JWST on last night, and it actually featured Judy Schmidt, whose image processing prowess we all know well here!

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWSfc0IyuwI&t=2079s

Note: using the start time format makes the [ youtube ] tags fail to recognize it. :( But you can drag the slider to 34:39 in the video below if you like.

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:58 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:48 pm
SpaceCadet wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:46 am The star in the upper left hand corner has a double star effect from the JW camera. Is this an anomaly or is it bc there are actually 2 stars really close to each other?
I see this regularly with my own images (which have just typical 4-spike diffraction). Close doubles are often not apparent at their core, where all the light is together in a big blob, but are made obvious by their not quite overlapping diffraction spikes.
Interesting. So, we can see two true close doubles in this image, correct? One at upper left and one at far lower left.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:04 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:48 pm
SpaceCadet wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:46 am The star in the upper left hand corner has a double star effect from the JW camera. Is this an anomaly or is it bc there are actually 2 stars really close to each other?
I see this regularly with my own images (which have just typical 4-spike diffraction). Close doubles are often not apparent at their core, where all the light is together in a big blob, but are made obvious by their not quite overlapping diffraction spikes.
Interesting. So, we can see two true close doubles in this image, correct? One at upper left and one at far lower left.
That would be my assessment. If this were a processing artifact (e.g. an alignment error) we'd see it uniformly across the image. Also, note that the offsets are different in the two cases. We can estimate the position angles of the otherwise obscured binaries from that.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:05 pm

Ann wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:38 am
AVAO wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:23 am
Ann wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:50 am Where in the picture is Rho Ophiuchi itself?

Ann
Hi Ann

For orientation. Description a bit confusing...
Original Image: h[url]ttps://www.eso.org/public/unitedkingdom/images/eso1123a/?lang
biggg:https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/530 ... 7d17_o.jpg
Thanks a bunch, AVAO!

Ann
I'm still confused. A wiki image from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rho_Ophiu ... ud_complex says Rho Ophiuchi is at the center of the large blue region. Though of course, it might still wrong!

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:09 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:04 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:48 pm

I see this regularly with my own images (which have just typical 4-spike diffraction). Close doubles are often not apparent at their core, where all the light is together in a big blob, but are made obvious by their not quite overlapping diffraction spikes.
Interesting. So, we can see two true close doubles in this image, correct? One at upper left and one at far lower left.
That would be my assessment. If this were a processing artifact (e.g. an alignment error) we'd see it uniformly across the image. Also, note that the offsets are different in the two cases. We can estimate the position angles of the otherwise obscured binaries from that.
Ok, what does your last sentence mean? What "position angles"?
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:14 pm

Hmm, 50 young stars within a volume of about a cubic lightyear! This makes me wonder whether, if, over time, it is natural for sibling stars to migrate away from each other, which behavior would seem to be necessary to explain why most older stars - like our Sun - are found several lightyears apart. The counter case I suppose would be much larger nurseries of stars which might tend to form large clusters of stars that manage to stay together due to a stringer collective gravity?
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:30 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:14 pm Hmm, 50 young stars within a volume of about a cubic lightyear! This makes me wonder whether, if, over time, it is natural for sibling stars to migrate away from each other, which behavior would seem to be necessary to explain why most older stars - like our Sun - are found several lightyears apart. The counter case I suppose would be much larger nurseries of stars which might tend to form large clusters of stars that manage to stay together due to a stringer collective gravity?
Open clusters do not contain many gravitationally bound stars (by which I mean stars that are in closed orbits around each other). Open clusters are short-lived and simply dissipate.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by bystander » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:48 pm

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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:58 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:30 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:14 pm Hmm, 50 young stars within a volume of about a cubic lightyear! This makes me wonder whether, if, over time, it is natural for sibling stars to migrate away from each other, which behavior would seem to be necessary to explain why most older stars - like our Sun - are found several lightyears apart. The counter case I suppose would be much larger nurseries of stars which might tend to form large clusters of stars that manage to stay together due to a stringer collective gravity?
Open clusters do not contain many gravitationally bound stars (by which I mean stars that are in closed orbits around each other). Open clusters are short-lived and simply dissipate.
Ok. Now why would that be? I would think that if all the stars in an open cluster like this formed from the same mass of gas, that there would be a natural tendency for the stars so formed to remain bound to each other. Hmm, is the gas itself not even bound by its own gravity due to being so dispersed and subject to other forces like random collisions?
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:13 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:30 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:14 pm Hmm, 50 young stars within a volume of about a cubic lightyear! This makes me wonder whether, if, over time, it is natural for sibling stars to migrate away from each other, which behavior would seem to be necessary to explain why most older stars - like our Sun - are found several lightyears apart. The counter case I suppose would be much larger nurseries of stars which might tend to form large clusters of stars that manage to stay together due to a stringer collective gravity?
Open clusters do not contain many gravitationally bound stars (by which I mean stars that are in closed orbits around each other). Open clusters are short-lived and simply dissipate.
Ok. Now why would that be? I would think that if all the stars in an open cluster like this formed from the same mass of gas, that there would be a natural tendency for the stars so formed to remain bound to each other. Hmm, is the gas itself not even bound by its own gravity due to being so dispersed and subject to other forces like random collisions?
Gravity is a very weak force. Protostars naturally form quite far from each other, so they are not gravitationally bound. Think about what 50 stars in a cubic light year actually means: an average separation of about 4 light years. About the same as the distance from the Sun to our nearest stellar neighbor.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by orin stepanek » Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:01 pm

https://webbtelescope.org/contents/medi ... M7EWDE9RSN
STScI-01_RhoOph1024.png
interesting view of RhoOph1024! I like it ! 8-)
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:37 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:13 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:30 pm

Open clusters do not contain many gravitationally bound stars (by which I mean stars that are in closed orbits around each other). Open clusters are short-lived and simply dissipate.
Ok. Now why would that be? I would think that if all the stars in an open cluster like this formed from the same mass of gas, that there would be a natural tendency for the stars so formed to remain bound to each other. Hmm, is the gas itself not even bound by its own gravity due to being so dispersed and subject to other forces like random collisions?
Gravity is a very weak force. Protostars naturally form quite far from each other, so they are not gravitationally bound. Think about what 50 stars in a cubic light year actually means: an average separation of about 4 light years. About the same as the distance from the Sun to our nearest stellar neighbor.
That math isn't right. Fifty stars in a cubic light year means that ALL the stars are within sqrt(3) ly of each other (that's the length of the solid diagonal)! If the 50 stars were equally spread throughout the volume, each would be in the center of its own little sub-cube with volume 1/50 of a cubic ly, which is a cube 0.271 ly on a side. That gives a solid diagonal length for each little cube of sqrt(3) * 0.271 = 0.4 ly. Oh, I suppose you must have just left out the decimal point! :)
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:00 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:37 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:13 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:58 pm

Ok. Now why would that be? I would think that if all the stars in an open cluster like this formed from the same mass of gas, that there would be a natural tendency for the stars so formed to remain bound to each other. Hmm, is the gas itself not even bound by its own gravity due to being so dispersed and subject to other forces like random collisions?
Gravity is a very weak force. Protostars naturally form quite far from each other, so they are not gravitationally bound. Think about what 50 stars in a cubic light year actually means: an average separation of about 4 light years. About the same as the distance from the Sun to our nearest stellar neighbor.
That math isn't right. Fifty stars in a cubic light year means that ALL the stars are within sqrt(3) ly of each other (that's the length of the solid diagonal)! If the 50 stars were equally spread throughout the volume, each would be in the center of its own little sub-cube with volume 1/50 of a cubic ly, which is a cube 0.271 ly on a side. That gives a solid diagonal length for each little cube of sqrt(3) * 0.271 = 0.4 ly. Oh, I suppose you must have just left out the decimal point! :)
Thought I typed it! In any case, that's still very far apart. Two stars at that distance are weakly bound, and when you throw in the perturbations of a cloud of them, it's game over for any sort of stability.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Jul 13, 2023 11:59 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:00 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:37 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:13 pm
Gravity is a very weak force. Protostars naturally form quite far from each other, so they are not gravitationally bound. Think about what 50 stars in a cubic light year actually means: an average separation of about 4 light years. About the same as the distance from the Sun to our nearest stellar neighbor.
That math isn't right. Fifty stars in a cubic light year means that ALL the stars are within sqrt(3) ly of each other (that's the length of the solid diagonal)! If the 50 stars were equally spread throughout the volume, each would be in the center of its own little sub-cube with volume 1/50 of a cubic ly, which is a cube 0.271 ly on a side. That gives a solid diagonal length for each little cube of sqrt(3) * 0.271 = 0.4 ly. Oh, I suppose you must have just left out the decimal point! :)
Thought I typed it! In any case, that's still very far apart. Two stars at that distance are weakly bound, and when you throw in the perturbations of a cloud of them, it's game over for any sort of stability.
Ok, thanks.
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by johnnydeep » Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:44 am

AVAO wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:23 am
Ann wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:50 am Where in the picture is Rho Ophiuchi itself?

Ann
Hi Ann

For orientation. Description a bit confusing...
Original Image: h[url]ttps://www.eso.org/public/unitedkingdom/images/eso1123a/?lang
biggg:https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/530 ... 7d17_o.jpg
Ok, I finally get it. I'm slow... AVAO is showing where this APOD fov is in relation to the much larger Rho Ophiuci Cloud Complex! And the Rho Ophiuci star system itself isn't even IN this APOD. No, it's the brightest star (system) in the center of the large blue area far above in AVAO's image!! <smacks head>

And just for some more context, here's an annotated version of the entire complex side by side with AVAO's image (rotated):

rho ophiuci star system in the rho ophiuci molecular cloud complex.jpg

(The annotated image is from https://cdn.astrobin.com/solutions/imag ... 856258.jpg)
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by VictorBorun » Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:33 am

orin stepanek wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:01 pm https://webbtelescope.org/contents/medi ... M7EWDE9RSN
STScI-01_RhoOph1024.png
interesting view of RhoOph1024! I like it ! 8-)
not without shadows… and protoplanetaries are this way and that
shadows 400.jpg
shadows 200.jpg
shadows 100.jpg
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Re: APOD: Webb's Rho Ophiuchi (2023 Jul 13)

Post by VictorBorun » Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:34 am

VictorBorun wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 6:33 am
orin stepanek wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:01 pm https://webbtelescope.org/contents/medi ... M7EWDE9RSN
STScI-01_RhoOph1024.png
interesting view of RhoOph1024! I like it ! 8-)
not without shadows… and protoplanetaries are this way and that
shadows 400.jpgshadows 200.jpgshadows 100.jpg
shadows2 400.jpg
shadows2 200.jpg
shadows2 100.jpg
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