High Cliffs Surrounding Echus Chasma on Mars (23 Jul 2008)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
Andy Wade
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Post by Andy Wade » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 pm

apodman wrote:
neufer wrote:
apodman wrote:According to http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/h ... 40319.html ...

"blueberries" ... are, for the record, gray in color
<<... Yellow, orange and red create a "warm grey". Green, blue, or purple, create a "cool grey". When there is no cast at all, it is referred to as "neutral grey". ...>>
Surely you've heard of "blueberry grey".
"I found my thrill,
Onnnnnn blueberry grey..."


Nah, doesn't work. :D

(Sincere apologies to Mr Domino)
Regards,
Andy.

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Post by apodman » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:58 pm

Andy Wade wrote:"I found my thrill,
Onnnnnn blueberry grey..."

Nah, doesn't work.

... apologies
Hematite's grey, dilly dilly, blueberry's blue
Meridiani Planum has spherules for you ...

(further apologies)

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Post by apodman » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:14 pm

Here's a nice picture of Echus Chasma:

(Link)
redorbit.com wrote:Eroding Material over Flows in Echus Chasma

Image PSP_001430_1815 was taken by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera onboard the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spacecraft on November 15, 2006. The complete image is centered at 1.6 degrees latitude, 278.9 degrees East longitude. The range to the target site was 265.2 km (165.8 miles). At this distance the image scale ranges from 53.1 cm/pixel (with 2 x 2 binning) to 106.1 cm/pixel (with 4 x 4 binning). The image shown here has been map-projected to 50 cm/pixel and north is up. The image was taken at a local Mars time of 3:30 PM and the scene is illuminated from the west with a solar incidence angle of 54 degrees, thus the sun was about 36 degrees above the horizon. At a solar longitude of 136.0 degrees, the season on Mars is Northern Summer. Posted on: 07 Feb, 2007
The quote above describes the linked image and is found at:

(Link)

I duplicated the text here because it's a big web page that may take some people forever to load.

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Ripples

Post by henk21cm » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:06 pm

apodman wrote:Here's a nice picture of Echus Chasma:

Huge image
Indeed, a very interesting image. Unfortunately i can not recognize the area on the apod of 20080723so i can not say whether this image shows the same area and so whether it is characteristic for the Echus Chasma. What i see in huge image, is a pattern filled with ripples. These are characteristic for a sandy bottom in a river, beach or tidal area. The English wikipedia explanation of ripples is very brief, the Dutch explanation is somewhat longer, the German explanation is excellent. I'll translate some of it, since (my assumption) you will not understand German.

Translated from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rippelmarke

Ripples are formed in a wet sandy environment, where the water velocity exceeds the critical velocity slightly. When the critical velocity for the movement of grains of sand is reached, the grains start to move and cluster in small groups. This creates irregularities in the sedimentary surface, being a few grains thick. This influence the flow in the boundary layer (added: between turbulent flow and laminar flow along the bottom). These irregularities lead to small hills. At the top of these hills the flow lines are closer together and the flow velocity increases. The sedimentary grains are transported upward, on to the top of the hill, at the windward side. Their movement is called saltating: rolling and jumping. The grains accumulate at the top of the hill. If too many grains are deposited at the top, the slope of the hill becomes instable and the grains slide down at the lee side of the hill and form a sediment. These thin layers of grains are called foresets and they form natural slopes of about 30–35°.

This process repeats itself and hill after hill is build, separated and laminated by deposits of intermediary layers of fine sediment, raining out of suspension. This leads to the gradual formation of ripples. At the top of the hills or dunes the flow is split. Part of the flow follows the interface between water and sand. The other part flows further and forms turbulent eddies at the lee side and as a consequence the flow hits the surface of the sediment, where, due to the enhanced turbulence, further erosion is generated, forming and deepening the troughs between the hills. Part of the eroded grains may be transported backwards to the foot of the slope at the lee side and are deposited as a thin layer. The other part is again brought into suspension or is transported to the windward side of the hill.

Ripples are divided into three groups or classes, according to their size:
  • Ripples, 3-5cm high, wavelength: 4-60 cm
  • Large ripples, 6cm - 1.5 m high, wavelength: 0.6-30 m
  • Giant or Mega ripples, 1-8 m high, wavelength larger than 30m.
The large and giant ripples are generated when the particle size of the sand is larger than 0.6-0.7 mm. The giant ripples are stationary, the other migrate or 'walk' . This imageshows a ripple pattern. (end of translation).

When studying the image apodman brought to our attention, two things are remarkable. The first is the fact that the ripple patterns are not parallel. There are parts where the angles differ 90º. If the origin of the ripples is aeolian, like the wind blown sand dunes (Giant ripples) in the Sahara dessert, then on a scale of 50 km the predominant wind would have been blowing from completely different directions, even perpendicular.

The second is the scale of the ripples, or rather their wavelength. I rotated the image by 97º, it is then horizontal. In the mid section the wavelength of the ripples is about 10 m (20 ripples in 234 pixels = 234 m). At the right side the wavelength has decreased to about 6 m (33 ripples in 235 pixels = 235 m). If one considers the flow as mildly turbulent, gravity plays hardly any role. The mere fact that the acceleration of gravity on Mars differs from that on earth, is under the assumption of mildly turbulent flow of no importance, and thus the values as on earth, can be used.
Regards,
 Henk
21 cm: the universal wavelength of hydrogen

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Post by Bad Buoys » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:31 am

That image, especially if you shrink and display the whole image, appears to have been stored and transmitted as a .jpg too many times. It is beginning to appear as shot through a screen door. JPG should never be used for analysis if possible. It is the only compression scheme which actually changes elements in the picture.

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Post by apodman » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:34 pm

Bad Buoys wrote:... if you shrink and display the whole image ...
Are you sure the problems are due to jpg compression? Just shrinking the picture causes loss of resolution and "screen door" dithering. When I view this picture full size as intended, it looks pretty good. What you say about loss of information and quality in jpgs, especially after repeated "saves", is true - I just don't see it here.

Like henk21cm, I scrolled around the full size image several times looking unsuccessfully for the location of the APOD photo. But there was a lot of detail (ripples, etc.) to contemplate while I was looking.

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JPG: no thank you, PNG: yes please!

Post by henk21cm » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:12 pm

Bad Buoys wrote:JPG should never be used for analysis if possible. It is the only compression scheme which actually changes elements in the picture.
I could not agree more. JPEGs DCT ruins the quality of derivatives. I prefer PNG or lossless TIFF. Unfortunately JPG is mostly available on the web. There are exceptions, the Hubble site and the Phoenix site sometimes provide TIFF. Image processing which uses large scale structures -i.e. low frequency correlation- is possible on JPG, if the JPG quality is 75% or better. Such images or rather image sequences allow for the determination of displacements of the order of 1/20 of a pixel, on a ROI of 16x16 pixels.
Regards,
 Henk
21 cm: the universal wavelength of hydrogen

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Re: Ice or soil? That's the question

Post by Bad Buoys » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:36 pm

henk21cm wrote:There is one major aspect that breaks the similarity between Mars and earth: the difference between the freezing temperature of water and the respective average surface temperatures. On Mars the average surface temperature is an odd 30 K lower than on earth. Here on earth a decrease of 10 K in average tempreature will trigger an ice age. On Mars the average temperature is thought to be too low to allow for a "thaw age".
The operative word is 'surface'. Considering Mars' lower atmospheric pressure water would remain solid even longer. But we've seen much evidence of water events on Mars with some, such as the Chasma cliffs, being on a massive scale. So the surface must have been much warmer at some period [Apex of Martian Warming with a period of intense volcanic activity?]
And that dark surface layer seen spilling over the cliff's edge may evidence recent, major volcanic activity which, covering the icy surface have aided a temporary thaw; at which time the ash would have settled to the bottom while the surface began a refreeze era.

If it is ice, its thickness would be very important. How do Mars' internal temps look? Wouldn't any geothermal heat set up massive currents, such as in our magma, under the frozen surface? Are there any IR images of the Chasma?

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Re: Ice or soil? That's the question

Post by henk21cm » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:21 pm

Bad Buoys wrote:If it is ice, its thickness would be very important. How do Mars' internal temps look? Wouldn't any geothermal heat set up massive currents, such as in our magma, under the frozen surface?
If geothermal currents would (still) exist on Mars, then
  • plate tectonics must be still present. Marsquakes are AFAIK not reported.
  • due to differential rotation of the hot (magma) core a global magnetic field would be present. The global magnetic field of Mars is extremely weak or is not existent.
Since neither of these two effects are currently present, any hot core is presently cooled down. That does not exclude that both did not exist in the far past, or in other words: "it might have been possible".

Note that the ripples found in the image of the Chasma apodman kindly brought to our attention do not irrefutably proove the existence of flowing water. Flowing air can generate simular patterns. You could analysis the direction of all flow in the Chasma and see if there is a strange pattern, which excludes aeolian influence. Wind equally as water follow a valey.

It is tempting to compare the cliffs with e.g. Niagara falls, or the Victoria falls. These Arean cliffs can be shaped by dry flows (blowing sand/ash) as well.
Regards,
 Henk
21 cm: the universal wavelength of hydrogen

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Post by loquin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:27 pm

Given the juxtaposition of the impact crater to the slump, it would appear that meteor impact was responsible for the slump. If this is the case, would you think that the impact shock wave caused the slump directly, or, it was indirectly caused by residual heat from the impact, melting ice at the canyon edge (and thus providing lubrication for 'avalanching.')

Or, possibly, a combination?



On an almost entirely unrelated side-note, a meteor impacting the earth is known as a meteorite. What about a meteor impacting another planet?

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Post by bystander » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:43 pm

:oops:
Last edited by bystander on Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bystander » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:44 pm

loquin wrote:On an almost entirely unrelated side-note, a meteor impacting the earth is known as a meteorite. What about a meteor impacting another planet?
I don't think it matters which planet you are on.
  • meteoroid
    • A relatively small (sand- to boulder-sized) fragment of debris in a solar system that produces a meteor when it hits the atmosphere.
    meteor
    • A fast moving streak of light in the night sky caused by the entry of external matter into a planet's atmosphere.
    meteorite
    • A metallic or stony object or body that is the remains of a meteor.

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Post by Bad Buoys » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 am

henk,

The common assumption is that the core is cool because there is no magnetic field. But if it were solely silica heated by uranium I don't believe that would set up a field either. I think you need an iron core for magnetism. And even if it does have a hot, iron core; if it were turning with the planet after all these eons, then again there would be no field. Given its further distance from the sun, Mars would have radiated heat faster than Earth and an iron core, though still hot and molten, could have cooled with the increased viscosity accelerating it's match to the crust's motion.

But the geothermal currents I speak of are in water such as Yellowstone with geysers and hot springs. That doesn't require a hot core per se, but could be water that circulates through local, deep structures which are heated by their own nuclear concentrations. If such a case exists on Mars then liquid water could exist under my assumed ice. Additionally if the ice were thick enough and exerted enough pressure on the lake no heat would be needed given the STP curve and again there would be liquid at depths. Matter of fact, those frost ridges around the edge may even be water coming up around the edge of the ice and freezing.

Fascinating area.
Image

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