APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

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APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by APOD Robot » Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:09 am

Image The Shadow of Ingenuity's Damaged Rotor Blade

Explanation: On January 18, 2024, during its 72nd flight in the thin Martian atmosphere, autonomous Mars Helicopter Ingenuity rose to an altitude of 12 meters (40 feet) and hovered for 4.5 seconds above the Red Planet. Ingenuity's 72nd landing was a rough one though. During descent it lost contact with the Perseverance rover about 1 meter above the Martian surface. Ingenuity was able to transmit this image after contact was re-established, showing the shadow of one of its rotor blades likely damaged during landing. And so, after wildly exceeding expectations during over 1,000 days of exploring Mars, the history-making Ingenuity has ended its flight operations. Nicknamed Ginny, Mars Helicopter Ingenuity became the first aircraft to achieve powered, controlled flight on another planet on April 19, 2021. Before launch, a small piece of material from the lower-left wing of the Wright Brothers Flyer 1, the first aircraft to achieve powered, controlled flight on planet Earth, was fixed to the underside of Ingenuity's solar panel.

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Guest » Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:49 am

The Wright Flyer of 1903 was NOT "the first aircraft to achieve powered, controlled flight" on Earth! In 1884 the airship La France made a 23-minute, 5-mile round trip flight, returning to her starting point against the wind. Other less-successful craft made powered flights even before that.

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by sc02492 » Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:32 pm

Guest wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:49 am The Wright Flyer of 1903 was NOT "the first aircraft to achieve powered, controlled flight" on Earth! In 1884 the airship La France made a 23-minute, 5-mile round trip flight, returning to her starting point against the wind. Other less-successful craft made powered flights even before that.
The Wright Flyer was the first aircraft to achieve "heavier-than-air" powered, controlled flight. That is the achievement being referred to here.

Steve

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:22 pm

APOD wrote:Before launch, a small piece of material from the lower-left wing of the Wright Brothers Flyer 1, the first aircraft to achieve powered, controlled flight on planet Earth, was fixed to the underside of Ingenuity's solar panel.
Really? This jury-rigged modification passed quality control and validation checks before launch? From the "fixed to the underside" link:
https://images.nasa.gov/details/PIA24291 wrote:NASA's Ingenuity Mars Helicopter carries a small swatch of muslin material from the lower-left wing of the Wright Brothers Flyer 1. Located on the underside of the helicopter's solar panel (the dark rectangle), the swatch is attached with dark orange polymide tape to a cable extending from the panel, and then further secured in place with white polyester cord used to bind cables together. A gray dot of epoxy at the intersection of the three wraps of cord prevents the lacing from loosening as the rotor blades (upper pair seen at bottom of image) rotate at up to 2,400 rpm. The entire process, from enclosing the material in the plastic to affixing it onto the helicopter took, approximately 30 minutes.
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Roy » Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:05 pm

So, flight to flight - 118 years 5 months. A stunning array of intermediates , in between : WWI biplanes, WWII fighters & bombers, passenger airliners, jets of all types, rockets of all types, rotary winged aircraft from autogyro through helicopters to the Osprey.
We won’t get to other worlds in person until they figure out how the UFOs work,so we can avoid sending people atop thousands of pounds of explosive stuff to then coast through empty space. A technology aliens might be unwilling to share, given humanity’s warlike nature.

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Fred the Cat » Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:13 pm

So, Perseverance was too far away for a direct image but a flight was attempted in which contact was lost and the incident occurred?

Does that mean the real cause was a last-ditch effort to get Ingenuity closer? :? It makes me wonder why it so far away that communication was an issue. :|
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm

Fred the Cat wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:13 pm So, Perseverance was too far away for a direct image but a flight was attempted in which contact was lost and the incident occurred?

Does that mean the real cause was a last-ditch effort to get Ingenuity closer? :? It makes me wonder why it so far away that communication was an issue. :|
I don't think the communications loss was related to distance.
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Fred the Cat » Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:58 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm
Fred the Cat wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:13 pm So, Perseverance was too far away for a direct image but a flight was attempted in which contact was lost and the incident occurred?

Does that mean the real cause was a last-ditch effort to get Ingenuity closer? :? It makes me wonder why it so far away that communication was an issue. :|
I don't think the communications loss was related to distance.
Unfortunately, its end was also ground-breaking. :(
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:37 pm

Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:05 pm So, flight to flight - 118 years 5 months. A stunning array of intermediates , in between : WWI biplanes, WWII fighters & bombers, passenger airliners, jets of all types, rockets of all types, rotary winged aircraft from autogyro through helicopters to the Osprey.
We won’t get to other worlds in person until they figure out how the UFOs work,so we can avoid sending people atop thousands of pounds of explosive stuff to then coast through empty space. A technology aliens might be unwilling to share, given humanity’s warlike nature.
Sure we will. Humans will be on Mars in a few decades. It's "only" exoplanets (by definition, those around other stars) that are currently truly virtually inaccessible in person by either humans or probes. But I'm sure that's what you were referring to.
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:39 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:37 pm
Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:05 pm So, flight to flight - 118 years 5 months. A stunning array of intermediates , in between : WWI biplanes, WWII fighters & bombers, passenger airliners, jets of all types, rockets of all types, rotary winged aircraft from autogyro through helicopters to the Osprey.
We won’t get to other worlds in person until they figure out how the UFOs work,so we can avoid sending people atop thousands of pounds of explosive stuff to then coast through empty space. A technology aliens might be unwilling to share, given humanity’s warlike nature.
Sure we will. Humans will be on Mars in a few decades. It's "only" exoplanets (by definition, those around other stars) that are currently truly virtually inaccessible in person by either humans or probes. But I'm sure that's what you were referring to.
I doubt any aliens are traveling between them, either.
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:40 pm

Fred the Cat wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:58 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm
Fred the Cat wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:13 pm So, Perseverance was too far away for a direct image but a flight was attempted in which contact was lost and the incident occurred?

Does that mean the real cause was a last-ditch effort to get Ingenuity closer? :? It makes me wonder why it so far away that communication was an issue. :|
I don't think the communications loss was related to distance.
Unfortunately, its end was also ground-breaking. :(
More like rotor breaking!
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:46 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:39 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:37 pm
Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:05 pm So, flight to flight - 118 years 5 months. A stunning array of intermediates , in between : WWI biplanes, WWII fighters & bombers, passenger airliners, jets of all types, rockets of all types, rotary winged aircraft from autogyro through helicopters to the Osprey.
We won’t get to other worlds in person until they figure out how the UFOs work,so we can avoid sending people atop thousands of pounds of explosive stuff to then coast through empty space. A technology aliens might be unwilling to share, given humanity’s warlike nature.
Sure we will. Humans will be on Mars in a few decades. It's "only" exoplanets (by definition, those around other stars) that are currently truly virtually inaccessible in person by either humans or probes. But I'm sure that's what you were referring to.
I doubt any aliens are traveling between them, either.
Probably not, but I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been at least one other advanced alien civilization that developed AIs that travelled to other Stars in the past 10 billion years somewhere out there.

And there's always the possibility that they hopped a ride on a passing star system and hitched a ride! (Though granted, you'd probably still have to be able to travel at least a light year or so to do so.)
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:50 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:46 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:39 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:37 pm

Sure we will. Humans will be on Mars in a few decades. It's "only" exoplanets (by definition, those around other stars) that are currently truly virtually inaccessible in person by either humans or probes. But I'm sure that's what you were referring to.
I doubt any aliens are traveling between them, either.
Probably not, but I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been at least one other advanced alien civilization that developed AIs that travelled to other Stars in the past 10 billion years somewhere out there.
Well, the most plausible model for that kind of investigation would have the AIs replicating themselves every time they encountered new resources, which hardly requires technology much more advanced than our own. But you do the calculations, and if that had ever happened, every star in the galaxy should have probes around it... something that would only have required a few tens of millions of years. So... where are they?
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Ann » Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:02 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:37 pm
Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:05 pm So, flight to flight - 118 years 5 months. A stunning array of intermediates , in between : WWI biplanes, WWII fighters & bombers, passenger airliners, jets of all types, rockets of all types, rotary winged aircraft from autogyro through helicopters to the Osprey.
We won’t get to other worlds in person until they figure out how the UFOs work,so we can avoid sending people atop thousands of pounds of explosive stuff to then coast through empty space. A technology aliens might be unwilling to share, given humanity’s warlike nature.
Sure we will. Humans will be on Mars in a few decades. It's "only" exoplanets (by definition, those around other stars) that are currently truly virtually inaccessible in person by either humans or probes. But I'm sure that's what you were referring to.
A Swedish astronaut, Marcus Wandt, has just returned to the Earth from the ISS. When he took his first steps on the Earth after his return, he was wobbly. He had been in space for some two weeks (if I remember correctly).

If he was affected that much by two weeks in space, how will Mars-faring astronauts feel when landing on Mars after months in space? How easy will it really be for humanity to conquer Mars?

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:07 pm

Ann wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:02 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:37 pm
Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:05 pm So, flight to flight - 118 years 5 months. A stunning array of intermediates , in between : WWI biplanes, WWII fighters & bombers, passenger airliners, jets of all types, rockets of all types, rotary winged aircraft from autogyro through helicopters to the Osprey.
We won’t get to other worlds in person until they figure out how the UFOs work,so we can avoid sending people atop thousands of pounds of explosive stuff to then coast through empty space. A technology aliens might be unwilling to share, given humanity’s warlike nature.
Sure we will. Humans will be on Mars in a few decades. It's "only" exoplanets (by definition, those around other stars) that are currently truly virtually inaccessible in person by either humans or probes. But I'm sure that's what you were referring to.
A Swedish astronaut, Marcus Wandt, has just returned to the Earth from the ISS. When he took his first steps on the Earth after his return, he was wobbly. He had been in space for some two weeks (if I remember correctly).

If he was affected that much by two weeks in space, how will Mars-faring astronauts feel when landing on Mars after months in space? How easy will it really be for humanity to conquer Mars?

Ann
We will not "conquer Mars" until there is some reason to do so... and there are no real reasons and are unlikely to be any for centuries. It's likely that a few people will visit Mars. Mainly for political goals (like the current Moon and Mars mission proposals). They will suffer some physical damage (like long term ISS astronauts) but it will be with that understanding and acceptance. There will be little or no significant human presence on Mars in the foreseeable future.
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:16 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:50 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:46 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:39 pm
I doubt any aliens are traveling between them, either.
Probably not, but I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been at least one other advanced alien civilization that developed AIs that travelled to other Stars in the past 10 billion years somewhere out there.
Well, the most plausible model for that kind of investigation would have the AIs replicating themselves every time they encountered new resources, which hardly requires technology much more advanced than our own. But you do the calculations, and if that had ever happened, every star in the galaxy should have probes around it... something that would only have required a few tens of millions of years. So... where are they?
Yes, there's the pesky "Then Where Are They?" problem, but various possible explanations have been floated (beyond it "never even got started").
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Roy » Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:59 pm

They now call them UAPs instead of UFOs, and there are voluminous number of sightings on the net. They can maneuver in ways aircraft cannot. Sightings go as far back at least to wWII “foo fighters”. Interactions with aliens have been recorded, books have been written. Lots of strange things straining credulity. World wide. Engineers are working on it, thinking it involves electricity and magnetism. You can find books on Amazon.

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:01 pm

Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:59 pm They now call them UAPs instead of UFOs, and there are voluminous number of sightings on the net. They can maneuver in ways aircraft cannot. Sightings go as far back at least to wWII “foo fighters”. Interactions with aliens have been recorded, books have been written. Lots of strange things straining credulity. World wide. Engineers are working on it, thinking it involves electricity and magnetism. You can find books on Amazon.
My credulity is healthy. Which is why I don't take the reports as evidence of anything other than the myriad ways that people's senses mislead them. There are no aliens visiting us. Never were and never will be.
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:13 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:01 pm
Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:59 pm They now call them UAPs instead of UFOs, and there are voluminous number of sightings on the net. They can maneuver in ways aircraft cannot. Sightings go as far back at least to wWII “foo fighters”. Interactions with aliens have been recorded, books have been written. Lots of strange things straining credulity. World wide. Engineers are working on it, thinking it involves electricity and magnetism. You can find books on Amazon.
My credulity is healthy. Which is why I don't take the reports as evidence of anything other than the myriad ways that people's senses mislead them. There are no aliens visiting us. Never were and never will be.
I share Chris' healthy skepticism about aliens (in this case at least): that UAPs/UFOs "sightings" are nothing more than people and their instruments "seeing things" that have entirely mundane explanations. 😊
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Roy » Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:45 pm

Although now that I think of it, there may be much earlier written evidence. The book of Ezekiel tells of his “vision” (visitation) approximately 593 BC (he is approximately 64) by 4 strange creatures .First chapter of Ezekiel. Various unexplained sights and wheels. As the song says, “Ezekiel saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air. Big wheel turned by fire, little wheel turned by the Grace of God. A wheel in a wheel, way in the middle of the air.”

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:52 pm

Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:45 pm Although now that I think of it, there may be much earlier written evidence. The book of Ezekiel tells of his “vision” (visitation) approximately 593 BC (he is approximately 64) by 4 strange creatures .First chapter of Ezekiel. Various unexplained sights and wheels. As the song says, “Ezekiel saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air. Big wheel turned by fire, little wheel turned by the Grace of God. A wheel in a wheel, way in the middle of the air.”
The scholarly question remains: was he on drugs, or a paranoid schizophrenic like other prophets?
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by SeedsofEarfth » Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:54 pm

I'm curious about the little bright blue dot in the lower left quadrant of the ingenuity shadow photograph. Is that a camera anomaly or something in the Martian soil? It looks almost like a tiny piece of turquoise. Anyone else see it?

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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:58 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:52 pm
Roy wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:45 pm Although now that I think of it, there may be much earlier written evidence. The book of Ezekiel tells of his “vision” (visitation) approximately 593 BC (he is approximately 64) by 4 strange creatures .First chapter of Ezekiel. Various unexplained sights and wheels. As the song says, “Ezekiel saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air. Big wheel turned by fire, little wheel turned by the Grace of God. A wheel in a wheel, way in the middle of the air.”
The scholarly question remains: was he on drugs, or a paranoid schizophrenic like other prophets?
And let us not forget about the unfortunate and thoroughly debunked "Chariot's Of The Gods" by Erich von Däniken:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F wrote:Summary

The main thesis of Chariots of the Gods is that extraterrestrial beings influenced ancient technology. Von Däniken suggests that some ancient structures and artifacts appear to reflect more sophisticated technological knowledge than is known or presumed to have existed at the times they were manufactured. Von Däniken maintains that these artifacts were produced either by extraterrestrial visitors or by humans who learned the necessary knowledge from extraterrestrials.[1][3][4]

Such artifacts include the Egyptian pyramids, Stonehenge, and the Moai of Easter Island.[5][6] Further examples include an early world map known as the Piri Reis map, which von Däniken describes as showing Earth as it is seen from space,[7] and the Nazca Lines in Peru, which he suggests may have been constructed by humans as crude replicas of previous alien structures, as a way to call the aliens back to Earth.[8][9][10] He uses this same explanation to argue that cart ruts in Malta may have had extraterrestrial purposes along with similar lines in Australia, Saudi Arabia, and the Aral Sea.[8][11]

The book also suggests that ancient artwork throughout the world can be interpreted as depicting astronauts, air and space vehicles, extraterrestrials, and complex technology. Von Däniken describes elements that he believes are similar in the art of unrelated cultures.[1][12][13] Among the artwork he describes are ancient Japanese Dogū figurines (which he believes to resemble astronauts in spacesuits) and 3,000-year-old carvings in an Egyptian New Kingdom Temple that appear to depict helicopter-like machines.[7]
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Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by johnnydeep » Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:09 pm

SeedsofEarfth wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:54 pm I'm curious about the little bright blue dot in the lower left quadrant of the ingenuity shadow photograph. Is that a camera anomaly or something in the Martian soil? It looks almost like a tiny piece of turquoise. Anyone else see it?
Nice spot! Almost like one of the fabled "blueberries" found by the Opportunity rover:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_spherules wrote: These spherules were discovered on the Martian day that NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity landed at Meridiani Planum. (At NASA's Mission Control building that was January 24, 2004.) They are grey but look bluish next to the ubiquitous rusty reds on Mars, and since the first spherules found in Eagle Crater were 3–6 mm in diameter, the Opportunity team quickly called them "blueberries".

Martian blueberries are either embedded or loose. That is, Martian blueberries are either embedded in the large body of sediments of Meridiani Planum, or they are loose blueberries that lie directly on outcrops of the sediments or lie on top soils spread over the Meridiani sediments.[1][2] The size of these spherules varies by location and elevation across the Meridiani Planum.[3][4][5]

Martian blueberries are rich in the iron oxide hematite, but determining how rich they are in this iron oxide has proven difficult.[6][7][8][9][10][4][11] (more below). The formation of blueberries required aqueous chemistry and involved flows of acidic, salty, liquid water over the Meridiani Planum and over two geological epochs.[12][9][13][14][15][16]
But "blueberries" usually occur in groups, and this one seems too large. There's also another smaller "blueberry" a little way away. I'd guess it's more likely these are artifacts instead of being real objects. Hmm, unless both "objects" are actually small groups of blueberries? I'm not sure of the scale here.

blueberries in ingenuity shadow pic.jpg

[ EDIT: Oh, and there's a another larger and less spherical blue glob in the lower right on the other side of the shadow (in the large image, not my close-up). That smells even more like an artifact of some kind. ]
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Roy

Re: APOD: The Shadow of Ingenuity's Rotor... (2024 Feb 10)

Post by Roy » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:11 am

SeedsofEarfth wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:54 pm I'm curious about the little bright blue dot in the lower left quadrant of the ingenuity shadow photograph. Is that a camera anomaly or something in the Martian soil? It looks almost like a tiny piece of turquoise. Anyone else see it?
There is a big chunk at top left, two little chunks left of the rotor, and a broken piece right of the rotor. Don’t know what.