APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by APOD Robot » Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:05 am

Image Back from Bennu

Explanation: Back from asteroid 101955 Bennu, a 110-pound, 31-inch wide sample return capsule rests in a desert on planet Earth in this photo, taken at the Department of Defense Utah Test and Training Range near Salt Lake City last Sunday, September 24. Dropped off by the OSIRIS-Rex spacecraft, the capsule looks charred from the extreme temperatures experienced during its blistering descent through Earth's dense atmosphere. OSIRIS-Rex began its home-ward journey from Bennu in May of 2021. Delivered to NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston on September 25, the capsule's canister is expected to contain an uncontaminated sample of about a half pound (250 grams) of Bennu's loosely packed regolith. Working in a new laboratory designed for the OSIRIS-REx mission, scientists and engineers will complete the canister disassembly process, and plan to unveil the sample of the near-Earth asteroid in a broadcast event on October 11.

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RocketRon

Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by RocketRon » Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:45 am

An exciting day !
Years and years in the planning and making.

No parachute ??

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by JimB » Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:15 am

RocketRon wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:45 am An exciting day !
Years and years in the planning and making.

No parachute ??
Yes there was a parachute, which came down just a short distance away - not sure if it detached just before touch down or if it has been removed before this shot was taken.

Sa Ji Tario

Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Sa Ji Tario » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:04 pm

If they had hired Fed Ex, the capsule would be delivered to your home and not to a dusty desert

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by orin stepanek » Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:36 pm

BackFromBennu_1024.jpg
Waiting to be picked up are samples of Bennu! I hope they find
something out of this world! 😁
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Christian G. » Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:38 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:36 pm I hope they find something out of this world! 😁
Good one!

Roy

Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Roy » Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:38 pm

Would be interested to know what the planned tests are. They only have half a poun of samples.

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Sep 30, 2023 12:24 am

Roy wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:38 pm Would be interested to know what the planned tests are. They only have half a poun of samples.
Most chemical, isotopic, and mineralogical testing these days can be performed on microgram specimens, or even less!
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RocketRon

Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by RocketRon » Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:33 am

Those tests have already been done on the 2 small samples the japanese returned,
so it will be interesting to see if the results differ markedly.

https://scx2.b-cdn.net/gfx/news/2022/pr ... l-from.jpg

With theories and suggestions how the Solar System formed, or didn't, every grain of information helps ?!

P.S. it would seem the capsule photo has been 'sanitized' by removing the parachute.
Its even been disconnected in this view.
For reasons that can only be guessed at ?
https://earthsky.org/upl/2023/09/astero ... w-cp2.jpeg

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by alter-ego » Sat Sep 30, 2023 4:53 am

RocketRon wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:33 am
...

P.S. it would seem the capsule photo has been 'sanitized' by removing the parachute.
Its even been disconnected in this view.
For reasons that can only be guessed at ?
https://earthsky.org/upl/2023/09/astero ... w-cp2.jpeg
Viewing a NASA visualization video of the landing (scroll down to 15th video), the chute is immediately detached upon ground contact. I'm guessing maybe freeing the capsule to prevent unwanted dragging. For later pictures with other views of the capsule, either the chute is avoided, or it had been picked up. In any case, nothing seems unusual here.
 
OSIRIS-REX Landing &amp; Chute Release.jpg
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Avalon

Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Avalon » Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am

I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by alter-ego » Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am

Avalon wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?
I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by johnnydeep » Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:10 pm

alter-ego wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am
Avalon wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?
I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png
Thanks for that. Avalon asked a great question!

I don't know about "easily see"ing the yellow emblem in your second image, but that spot on the sample return capsule (SRC) is indeed different, so that must be it.

I googled for a good 30 minutes for an explanation of that "emblem" and found nothing, but to me I thought the "emblem" looked bolted on, but maybe that's an illusion:

osiris-rex src emblem closeup.png

But I did discover that this SRC is identical in design to the one used on the Stardust that touched down in 2006 with dust samples from comet Wild 2:


Note the similarly placed "emblem", though here it is a pristine and featureless white!

See more here: https://spaceflight101.com/osiris-rex/o ... n-capsule/
OSIRIS-REx adopts the Sample Return Capsule design from Stardust – a NASA mission to comet Wild 2 where it was to collect dust samples. Stardust lifted off in February 1999 and flew by asteroid Annefrank ahead of the flyby encounter of Wild 2 in 2003. The spacecraft was tasked with the collection of sample of the cometary dust of Wild 2 as well as cosmic particles that were planned to be captured in an aerogel collector.

The spacecraft returned to Earth on January 15, 2006, slamming into the atmosphere at a velocity of 12.9 Kilometers per second – the fastest re-entry speed ever achieved by a man-made object. Sticking to a steep entry profile, the capsule experienced a deceleration of over 30Gs and slowed from 36 times the speed of sound to subsonic speed in just under two minutes. During the entry process, the capsule endured temperatures of up to 2,900°C.
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Avalon

Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Avalon » Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:12 am

THANK YOU alter-ego and Johnnydeep for so thoroughly answering my question. Your answers are so interesting!

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by alter-ego » Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:31 am

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:10 pm
alter-ego wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am
Avalon wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?
I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png
Thanks for that. Avalon asked a great question!

I don't know about "easily see"ing the yellow emblem in your second image, but that spot on the sample return capsule (SRC) is indeed different, so that must be it.

I googled for a good 30 minutes for an explanation of that "emblem" and found nothing, but to me I thought the "emblem" looked bolted on, but maybe that's an illusion:
It is an illusion.
Four minutes elapsed between no-spot and spot images. The video narrator said that the person's job was environment and safety checking which entailed outgassing measurements and putting teflon seals on the top of the capsule and on valve(s) located on side of the capsule. These activities are captured in the images below. The left image shows hand contact with the side of the capsule, and on the right, the top seal is being attached (seal is barely visible in person's hands). The view of the capsule in a cleanroom clearly shows the top seal which looks very similar to the "emblem" on the side (not visible in the cleanroom). Note, if you look closely, this top seal is just visible in the APOD image between the chute attachment hardware, greatly foreshortened, but visible.
 
Capsule in Cleanroom_Top Seal Visible.jpg
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by johnnydeep » Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:19 pm

alter-ego wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:31 am
johnnydeep wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:10 pm
alter-ego wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am
I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png
Thanks for that. Avalon asked a great question!

I don't know about "easily see"ing the yellow emblem in your second image, but that spot on the sample return capsule (SRC) is indeed different, so that must be it.

I googled for a good 30 minutes for an explanation of that "emblem" and found nothing, but to me I thought the "emblem" looked bolted on, but maybe that's an illusion:
It is an illusion.
Four minutes elapsed between no-spot and spot images. The video narrator said that the person's job was environment and safety checking which entailed outgassing measurements and putting teflon seals on the top of the capsule and on valve(s) located on side of the capsule. These activities are captured in the images below. The left image shows hand contact with the side of the capsule, and on the right, the top seal is being attached (seal is barely visible in person's hands). The view of the capsule in a cleanroom clearly shows the top seal which looks very similar to the "emblem" on the side (not visible in the cleanroom). Note, if you look closely, this top seal is just visible in the APOD image between the chute attachment hardware, greatly foreshortened, but visible.
 
Capsule in Cleanroom_Top Seal Visible.jpg
Nice! Thank you for the clear explanation and excellent and conclusive images.
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by miop » Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am

The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm

miop wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.
Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton wrote:Kapton is a polyimide film used in flexible printed circuits (flexible electronics) and space blankets, which are used on spacecraft, satellites, and various space instruments. Invented by the DuPont Corporation in the 1960s, Kapton remains stable (in isolation) across a wide range of temperatures, from 4 to 673 K (−269 to +400 °C). Kapton is used in electronics manufacturing, space applications, with x-ray equipment, and in 3D printing applications. Its favorable thermal properties and outgassing characteristics result in its regular use in cryogenic applications and in situations where high vacuum environments are experienced.
But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm
miop wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.
Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton wrote:Kapton is a polyimide film used in flexible printed circuits (flexible electronics) and space blankets, which are used on spacecraft, satellites, and various space instruments. Invented by the DuPont Corporation in the 1960s, Kapton remains stable (in isolation) across a wide range of temperatures, from 4 to 673 K (−269 to +400 °C). Kapton is used in electronics manufacturing, space applications, with x-ray equipment, and in 3D printing applications. Its favorable thermal properties and outgassing characteristics result in its regular use in cryogenic applications and in situations where high vacuum environments are experienced.
But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.
The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm
miop wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.
Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton wrote:Kapton is a polyimide film used in flexible printed circuits (flexible electronics) and space blankets, which are used on spacecraft, satellites, and various space instruments. Invented by the DuPont Corporation in the 1960s, Kapton remains stable (in isolation) across a wide range of temperatures, from 4 to 673 K (−269 to +400 °C). Kapton is used in electronics manufacturing, space applications, with x-ray equipment, and in 3D printing applications. Its favorable thermal properties and outgassing characteristics result in its regular use in cryogenic applications and in situations where high vacuum environments are experienced.
But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.
The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.
So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?
Last edited by johnnydeep on Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm

Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:



But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.
The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.
So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?
No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.
Chris

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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:12 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm

The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.
So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?
No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.
Also, what explains the nine bolt-like circles around the periphery? I suppose those are real fasteners of some sort underneath the "sticker"?
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:28 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:12 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm

So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?
No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.
Also, what explains the nine bolt-like circles around the periphery? I suppose those are real fasteners of some sort underneath the "sticker"?
Unclear what they are. I don't know about underlying fasteners. None are apparent in the diagrams of the capsule (unlike the vent holes, which are quite obvious). The capsule material where the seal is attached is made out of a kind of modified cork. Maybe they are push pins!
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by johnnydeep » Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:38 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:28 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:12 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm
No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.
Also, what explains the nine bolt-like circles around the periphery? I suppose those are real fasteners of some sort underneath the "sticker"?
Unclear what they are. I don't know about underlying fasteners. None are apparent in the diagrams of the capsule (unlike the vent holes, which are quite obvious). The capsule material where the seal is attached is made out of a kind of modified cork. Maybe they are push pins!
That sounds just crazy enough to be plausible!
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Re: APOD: Back from Bennu (2023 Sep 29)

Post by miop » Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:39 am

Yes, push pins sounds good. And the Kapton tape holds the pins in place until the lid is attached to the venting hole. The white disc under the tape could be made of e.g. Teflon or ceramic. In case of Teflon the Tape will not stick very well, unless the surface would have been activated, with plasma or corona discharge. I'm thinking that the "sticker" is a prepared construction that is put on the hole in one piece, too.