WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

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AVAO
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WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by AVAO » Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:04 pm

The 'Cosmic Vine': Astronomers discover a large structure that hosts at least 20 massive galaxies
Phys.org | 2023 Nov 15
An international team of astronomers reports the discovery of a large-scale structure that consists of at least 20 massive galaxies. The structure, dubbed "Cosmic Vine," has a size of about 13 million physical light years. ...

Massive and dense structures of galaxies are perceived as progenitors of galaxy clusters — the most massive gravitationally-bound systems in the universe. Therefore, detecting new structures of this type and investigating them in detail is fundamental for our understanding of galaxy formation and evolution.

Now, a group of astronomers led by Shuowen Jin of the Technical University of Denmark, has detected a new object of this type — a large vine-like structure, hence its name Cosmic Vine. The structure was revealed at a redshift of 3.44, in the Extended Groth Strip (EGS) field observed with JWST. The observations were complemented by data from the Hubble Space Telescope (HST)."
more ...

Scientific information:
Shuowen Jin et al, Cosmic Vine: A z=3.44 Large-Scale Structure Hosting Massive Quiescent Galaxies, arXiv (2023).
DOI: 10.48550/arxiv.2311.04867


TY4YA Jac
Last edited by AVAO on Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by AVAO » Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:56 pm

"Now, a group of astronomers led by Shuowen Jin of the Technical University of Denmark, has detected a new object of this type — a large vine-like structure, hence its name Cosmic Vine. ..."

Comment: The discovered structure is huge, but of course only in relation to the calculated distance. In relation to the much closer nearby galaxy M101, the area of sky examined again appears small.

DSS2 with Infill: Credit: NASA/ESA/CSA (JWST)

Click to view full size image 1 or image 2
DSS2 with Infill: Credit: NASA/ESA/CSA (JWST)
DSS2 with Infill: Credit: NASA/ESA (SST)

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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by Ann » Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:33 am

AVAO wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:04 pm The 'Cosmic Vine': Astronomers discover a large structure that hosts at least 20 massive galaxies
Phys.org | 2023 Nov 15
An international team of astronomers reports the discovery of a large-scale structure that consists of at least 20 massive galaxies. The structure, dubbed "Cosmic Vine," has a size of about 13 million physical light years. ...

Massive and dense structures of galaxies are perceived as progenitors of galaxy clusters — the most massive gravitationally-bound systems in the universe. Therefore, detecting new structures of this type and investigating them in detail is fundamental for our understanding of galaxy formation and evolution.

Now, a group of astronomers led by Shuowen Jin of the Technical University of Denmark, has detected a new object of this type — a large vine-like structure, hence its name Cosmic Vine. The structure was revealed at a redshift of 3.44, in the Extended Groth Strip (EGS) field observed with JWST. The observations were complemented by data from the Hubble Space Telescope (HST)."
more ...

Scientific information:
Shuowen Jin et al, Cosmic Vine: A z=3.44 Large-Scale Structure Hosting Massive Quiescent Galaxies, arXiv (2023).
DOI: 10.48550/arxiv.2311.04867


TY4YA Jac


Jac, I really appreciate you making these posts about remarkable deep space objects and discoveries! Thanks! :D

What I found frustrating about this particular news item is that the Cosmic Vine is that we were told that its redshift is z = 3.44, but we weren't told what distance this redshift corresponds to. I think I have been told that there is not always an exact correlation between redshift and distance, but even so, I would so much like to know the approximate distance to this proto-cluster.

I was once shown a formula that I could use to calculate distance from redshift, but I refuse to even try, as I am a math idiot.

So, can anyone help me? Chris?

Ann
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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by AVAO » Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:10 pm

Ann wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:33 am
Jac, I really appreciate you making these posts about remarkable deep space objects and discoveries! Thanks! :D
...

Ann
ThanX Ann

As you know, a deep love connects me with deep sky :roll:
and I always appreciate your great comments!

Thanks too! Jac

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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by AVAO » Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:30 pm

Ann wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:33 am
AVAO wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:04 pm The 'Cosmic Vine': Astronomers discover a large structure that hosts at least 20 massive galaxies
Phys.org | 2023 Nov 15
An international team of astronomers reports the discovery of a large-scale structure that consists of at least 20 massive galaxies. The structure, dubbed "Cosmic Vine," has a size of about 13 million physical light years. ...

Massive and dense structures of galaxies are perceived as progenitors of galaxy clusters — the most massive gravitationally-bound systems in the universe. Therefore, detecting new structures of this type and investigating them in detail is fundamental for our understanding of galaxy formation and evolution.

Now, a group of astronomers led by Shuowen Jin of the Technical University of Denmark, has detected a new object of this type — a large vine-like structure, hence its name Cosmic Vine. The structure was revealed at a redshift of 3.44, in the Extended Groth Strip (EGS) field observed with JWST. The observations were complemented by data from the Hubble Space Telescope (HST)."
more ...

Scientific information:
Shuowen Jin et al, Cosmic Vine: A z=3.44 Large-Scale Structure Hosting Massive Quiescent Galaxies, arXiv (2023).
DOI: 10.48550/arxiv.2311.04867

TY4YA Jac

What I found frustrating about this particular news item is that the Cosmic Vine is that we were told that its redshift is z = 3.44, but we weren't told what distance this redshift corresponds to. I think I have been told that there is not always an exact correlation between redshift and distance, but even so, I would so much like to know the approximate distance to this proto-cluster.

I was once shown a formula that I could use to calculate distance from redshift, but I refuse to even try, as I am a math idiot.

So, can anyone help me? Chris?

Ann
When I ask the Google AI “Bard” I get the following answer. I have no idea whether the calculation is correct...

The distance corresponding to a redshift of z = 3.44 depends on the cosmological model used. The most widely accepted cosmological model is the Lambda-CDM model, which assumes that the universe is flat and that its expansion is accelerating due to a cosmological constant. In this model, the distance corresponding to a redshift of z = 3.44 is about 13.5 billion light-years.
lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov

The distance to a galaxy with a redshift of z = 3.44 can be calculated using the following formula:
d = c * z / H
where:
d is the distance to the galaxy in light-years
c is the speed of light in a vacuum
z is the redshift of the galaxy
H is the Hubble constant

The Hubble constant is a measure of the expansion rate of the universe. The current value of the Hubble constant is about 67.8 kilometers per second per megaparsec.

Plugging in the values for z and H, we get:
d = 300,000 km/s * 3.44 / 67.8 km/s/Mpc
d = 15,000 Mpc

One megaparsec is about 3.26 million light-years, so 15,000 Mpc is about 48.9 billion light-years. However, we need to take into account that the universe has been expanding since the light from the galaxy was emitted. To do this, we use a factor of (1 + z), which is about 4.44 in this case.
Therefore, the distance to the galaxy with a redshift of z = 3.44 is about 13.5 billion light-years.


... but if it's true, that's pretty far away. :wink: Jac

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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by Ann » Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:00 am

AVAO wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:30 pm
Ann wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:33 am

What I found frustrating about this particular news item is that the Cosmic Vine is that we were told that its redshift is z = 3.44, but we weren't told what distance this redshift corresponds to. I think I have been told that there is not always an exact correlation between redshift and distance, but even so, I would so much like to know the approximate distance to this proto-cluster.

I was once shown a formula that I could use to calculate distance from redshift, but I refuse to even try, as I am a math idiot.

So, can anyone help me? Chris?

Ann
When I ask the Google AI “Bard” I get the following answer. I have no idea whether the calculation is correct...

The distance corresponding to a redshift of z = 3.44 depends on the cosmological model used. The most widely accepted cosmological model is the Lambda-CDM model, which assumes that the universe is flat and that its expansion is accelerating due to a cosmological constant. In this model, the distance corresponding to a redshift of z = 3.44 is about 13.5 billion light-years.
lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov

The distance to a galaxy with a redshift of z = 3.44 can be calculated using the following formula:
d = c * z / H
where:
d is the distance to the galaxy in light-years
c is the speed of light in a vacuum
z is the redshift of the galaxy
H is the Hubble constant

The Hubble constant is a measure of the expansion rate of the universe. The current value of the Hubble constant is about 67.8 kilometers per second per megaparsec.

Plugging in the values for z and H, we get:
d = 300,000 km/s * 3.44 / 67.8 km/s/Mpc
d = 15,000 Mpc

One megaparsec is about 3.26 million light-years, so 15,000 Mpc is about 48.9 billion light-years. However, we need to take into account that the universe has been expanding since the light from the galaxy was emitted. To do this, we use a factor of (1 + z), which is about 4.44 in this case.
Therefore, the distance to the galaxy with a redshift of z = 3.44 is about 13.5 billion light-years.


... but if it's true, that's pretty far away. :wink: Jac
Thanks a billion for helping me, Jac! My brain just shies away from those calculations.

All I can do is ask myself if something sounds reasonable, and I don't think it is reasonable that z = 3.44 corresponds to 13.5 billion light-years. After all, there are galaxies with much higher redshifts, and 13.5 billion light-years is almost as far back as you can get.

If you check out this list, you can see, for example, that there is a galaxy called UNCOVER-z13, which is located at a light travel time of 13.51 billion light-years. Its redshift is z = 13.079, within some errors.

Then again, redshifts are dastardly confusing. The next to last object on the list has a redshift of z = 6.844, which is certainly sounds like a lot less than z = 13.079. Yet this other galaxy is almost as far away as the first one - some 13.1 billion light-years in light travel time versus 13.5 billion light-years! :shock:

Even so, it does sound very reasonable to me that a redshift of z = 3.44 must correspond to a light travel time distance of less than 13 billion light-years.

Ann
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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by Ann » Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:58 pm

I'm on my way out, but I have been listening (but not fully concentrating) on an hour-long discussion about how measuring the distances to galaxies can help us understand dark energy. The video is called 35 Million Galaxies in One Catalog to Understand Dark Energy, and it is published on Fraser Cain's Youtube channel.

In this video, he interviews a Dr. John Moustakas. Moustakas said in the video that dark energy started taking over the Universe at redshift z = 0.8, and Fraser Cain said that this redshift corresponds to a distance of 7 or 8 billion light-years.

So if z = 0.8 corresponds to a distance of at least 7 billion light-years, then I guess that a redshift of 3.44 may indeed correspond to a distance of pretty close to 13 billion light-years.

Ann
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Re: WEBB: Discovery of a large 'Cosmic Vine' structure

Post by AVAO » Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:32 pm